Rank these boat builders!

[MtB]

4 hours ago, Robbo said:

If you haven't already it will be worth reading upon power management, doesn't matter what boat you get if it's off-grid then you will need to do some for about a year your WHOLE LIFE will revolve around power management.  The best reading materials.

 

Corrected that for you

[Boater Sam]

The further away from London, the more sensible will be prices. Mercia Marina Burton, -  Venetian Barbridge,  -  Overwater, Audlem .  Many more.

 

Have a weekend away in Cheshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire, even Birmingham.

[ditchcrawler]

8 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

  . For one, because it's going to be an expensive and time consuming weekend, and we do want to maximise our chances, and for two, because the marinas insist upon it. Unfortunately it seems marinas don't want you to come and browse, they want you to specify two or three boats in particular that you are interested in. To be honest they seem incredibly full of $&!# about it. One marina even insists upon seeing proof of finance before they will let you in. I guess that just goes to show what a sellers' market it is right now.

 

This is why people keep telling you to go to Wilton, you can get a room in  Weedon for £45 so it doesn't need to be that expensive 

[Sea Dog]

18 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

For one, because it's going to be an expensive and time consuming weekend,...

If you think a weekend looking at boats is going to be expensive and time consuming, just wait til you actually buy a boat, particularly if you buy the wrong boat!  Whatever you need to do now to ensure you buy the right boat is probably the best investment you can make.

[mark99]

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

If you think a weekend looking at boats is going to be expensive and time consuming, just wait til you actually buy a boat, particularly if you buy the wrong boat!  Whatever you need to do now to ensure you buy the right boat is probably the best investment you can make.

Red Adair?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, mark99 said:

Red Adair?

Not really!

 

He said (about his charges for capping a gushing oil well) "If you think hiring a professional is expensive, wait till you hire an amateur". 

 

(Or words to that effect.)

[sirweste]

On 25/07/2018 at 09:27, Richard10002 said:

Our boat shell was built by Gary Gorton. Surveyor knew the name and said he built a good boat. A few people here had heard of him, but he isn't a name that features. We would have bought the boat if it had been built by Fred Blogs  

Also got a Gary Gorton hull. Seems good to me, surveyor seemed impressed with the build / quality. I quite often see things on other boats done poorly by comparison to mine, the little details that suggest to me that Gary Gorton knew and cared about what he / they were doing.

[mrsmelly]

Many people knock Wilton. My bro in law bought his first boat there, it was a cracking good boat at a decent price which he later sold on very very quickly due to its favourable condition. It's not all crap, just sayin like.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Many people knock Wilton. My bro in law bought his first boat there, it was a cracking good boat at a decent price which he later sold on very very quickly due to its favourable condition. It's not all crap, just sayin like.

 

I'd say that was 'luck of the draw', rather than from Whilton being a conscientious broker. They can't possibly be selling ONLY carpy boats, it's up to the buyer to sift out a good one by luck or by good judgement.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'd say that was 'luck of the draw', rather than from Whilton being a conscientious broker. They can't possibly be selling ONLY carpy boats, it's up to the buyer to sift out a good one by luck or by good judgement.

Yes I agree. They do sell lots of crap but do get some good stuff and not considering their stock is just plain daft. I bought my present boat through a broker that makes Wilton look positively amazing but even though it was and is a crap outfit the boat is exelent.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes I agree. They do sell lots of crap but do get some good stuff and not considering their stock is just plain daft. I bought my present boat through a broker that makes Wilton look positively amazing but even though it was and is a crap outfit the boat is exelent.

 

I agree it is daft to refuse to buy a boat from them. You just have to remember they will try to stitch you up like a kipper if they think you are a bit green. 

 

In fact I think they are ESSENTIAL viewing when looking for a boat. Nowhere else can you see so many boats all for sale all in the same place. 

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

In fact I think they are ESSENTIAL viewing when looking for a boat. Nowhere else can you see so many boats all for sale all in the same place. 

They must have a lot in at the moment - the OP is still there since we sent them to Whilton ten days ago!

[mark99]

22 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

They must have a lot in at the moment - the OP is still there since we sent them to Whilton ten days ago!

Pause whilst the spreadsheet is being updated. 

[Movin' on]

On 31/07/2018 at 13:10, ivan&alice said:

I work remotely, I don't need to be in London. Sorry, perhaps I didn't make this clear enough. We want a boat because we want to cruise the inland waterways, not to stay in London on the cheap. That said, we do love London, we have friends here and we hope that we'll be able to spend some time on a boat in London. We are not interested in a permanent mooring, this defeats the purpose for us - if as @Mike the Boilerman says she's only worth 10K without the mooring, we'd be paying 25K for something we don't want.

As has been discussed in other places, 70' boats don't appear to be more expensive than 57' boats to buy (though they are more to maintain and run) so I don't think that is relevant. If it were the case that 57' boats were 23% cheaper as well as 23% smaller, we'd consider one.

 

Yes, this is going to be an issue. As we work from home on laptops we are going to need lots of electricity. One of the things we liked about Joan was her three large solar panels and bank of leisure batteries. We'll have to upgrade the power on almost any boat we buy and we'll almost certainly need to run the engine or generator for hours as well on top. This is just a reality no matter which boat we're on.

From what I understand, connecting to mains power is one of the primary sources of corrosion on the boat (hence the need for sacrificial anodes) and so I'd prefer to buy a boat that isn't generally connected to mains.

 

This is definitely what we want to do.

We were going to do this last weekend (we were going to go to Great Haywood Boat Sales, though) but as it happened all the boats there that we liked are sold. We do want there to be at least a boat or two in particular that we might actually purchase. For one, because it's going to be an expensive and time consuming weekend, and we do want to maximise our chances, and for two, because the marinas insist upon it. Unfortunately it seems marinas don't want you to come and browse, they want you to specify two or three boats in particular that you are interested in. To be honest they seem incredibly full of $&!# about it. One marina even insists upon seeing proof of finance before they will let you in. I guess that just goes to show what a sellers' market it is right now.

 

We're not in a hurry and we'll keep looking and learning over the next 3 to 6 months. I think the biggest takeaway from this whole discussion is that our budget is not enough. We'll probably only buy much later in the year or next year when we can afford a boat for 40 to 45K.

I'll keep on making a nuisance of myself in the forum in the meantime though sorry for all the stupid questions. Speaking of which, I think I know what a stern tube, prop and rudder are, but what are "swims" in the context of a boat? It's a hard term to Google...

Steer clear of GHBS the boat you want is always sold generally bought by staff or friends of staff - these guys really can’t be trusted - comments based on personal experience - Whilton are better as they make no secret of what they do which is sell finance and boats that only want to turn right (starboard) 

[DandV]

Wilton has a lot of space and therefore does not need to be as sensitive to slow selling boats taking up space and preventing taking on more stock as most other brokers. They also take on boats that the custodians just want shot of them for a variety of reasons, from death of the owner, to simply not having the inclination, or the resources to prepare them for sale. As brokers, they therefore cater for a definite market, that would not suit the market strategy of many other brokers. I would never normally consider selling through them but had I passed away unexpectedly Wilton may well have been a valid choice to my executors. Depending on how long, and how badly, the boats had been neglected prior to sale, they may well present a good buying opportunity that would gain value from nothing more then a big throw out and a deep clean.

Edited August 13, 2018 by DandV

[jetzi]

Sorry I have not responded in a few days, I have been busy looking at boats! Still in London I'm afraid, I absolutely plan to check out marinas such as Whilton but we do have to plan around when we can manage a whole weekend. We are in no hurry, please don't take that to mean that we aren't taking your advice seriously!

We looked at a boat tonight that we really liked. She was built by Wessex Narrowboats who haven't been mentioned so far. It's just so hard to know what is an appropriate price - we'll have to get an evaluator to take a look in-water before we'll commit to a out of water survey.

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Sorry I have not responded in a few days, I have been busy looking at boats! Still in London I'm afraid, I absolutely plan to check out marinas such as Whilton but we do have to plan around when we can manage a whole weekend. We are in no hurry, please don't take that to mean that we aren't taking your advice seriously!

We looked at a boat tonight that we really liked. She was built by Wessex Narrowboats who haven't been mentioned so far. It's just so hard to know what is an appropriate price - we'll have to get an evaluator to take a look in-water before we'll commit to a out of water survey.

I would say about £44950

[GRLMK38]

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would say about £44950

+ a couple of midday pints

[jetzi]

Great guess there @Ditch Crawler  

I posted the ad in a separate thread if anyone is interested in checking her out. All opinions would be much appreciated!
 

 

[jetzi]

I've done a bit more research into valuing boat builders, and I thought I'd share it with you guys to hear your thoughts.

 

I created a big list of all 300 narrowboats on Apollo Duck that are more than 10K and more than 47'. I then grouped them by builder (of which there were 140 unique ones) and found the average price.

Here's a list of boat builders in order of the most expensive average price on the market. I only included manufacturers that had 3 or more boats for sale as they have a less biased average. Any thoughts on this ranking?

 

 

[DandV]

Narrowboat building is really a cottage industry with the first owner selecting, not necessarily in order.

Internal layout

Trad, semi-trad, cruiser, tug style.

Length

Boat fitter, or do it yourself

Hull manufacturer 

Engine and transmission

12v -24v electrical configuration

230v electrical configuration

Internal finishes and insulation

Window and door types

External coating types and colours

Pump out or cassette

Heating arrangement

Add ons, washing machine, cratch covers, solar panels, bow thruster etc.

For a used boat the original hull manufacturer is not as important as the condition of the hull now.

As a prospective used boat purchaser you need to do something similar to determine your, must haves, nice to haves, and dislikes and then be prepared to comprimise. 

To do this you do need to get out and look at boats, lots of them, and continue to ask questions, lots of them. We kept track of boats, their listed prices, any price reductions and time to sell. We found visiting brokers and explaining our parameters very worthwhile and obtained a much better understanding of "market value" and sought after features. It also gave us a good insight as to who we would use to sell our boat and what pre sale preparation was worthwhile.

The perfect boat, will either not be for sale at the time you are looking, or be unaffordable. Hence the need to comprimise. The more boats you have seen the more confidence you will have in recognising a boat that suits you and making a sensible offer before anybody else. If your requirements are middle of the road "clone craft" then you will be competing with a significant number of others also looking for a middle of the road boat. Not great when you are buying, but having middle of the road boat is great when you want to sell. Actually the recreational "clone craft" narrowboat has evolved into an extremly rugged practical craft for its specialised environment. We wish you well in your search.

I would advise you to also consider as to how long you intend to hold your boat, in other words consider the ease of reselling afterwards if your plans are reasonably finite. If a long term ownership is envisaged you should think about what you should spend on upgrading fairly quickly to extract the benefit of those upgrades. Because we intended a five year stint, summer six months only, we chose not to fit solar panels. But under a different regime we would consider fitting solar as a no brainer. In our parameters we had underestimated the importance of clothes washing and drying facilities, the washing machine and cratchcover, but fortunately the boat we bought did have these facilities. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by DandV
Added heating

[Athy]

Your thorough and exhaustive research is admirable, but does throw up some surprises. For example, Liverpool Boats mass-produced craft which, when new, sold at prices between budget and moderate*. Yet they rank above Steve Hudson, a craftsman whose boats varied from medium to top-of-the-range (he did offer three levels of finish and fit-out). I don't think I've even heard of M&D, who head your league table of prices.

 

* Don't rule out Liverpools - they were much maligned for having quality-control problems when new, but any problems should have been cure by now as the youngest ones are some 8 or 9 years old (they more or less shut down one Friday and reopened the following Monday as Collingwood, named after the dock where they're based). Our last boat had a Liverpool shell and we liked her very much. But I am not sure whether they often, if ever, built boats over about 57' long.

[alan_fincher]

8 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

I've done a bit more research into valuing boat builders, and I thought I'd share it with you guys to hear your thoughts.

 

I created a big list of all 300 narrowboats on Apollo Duck that are more than 10K and more than 47'. I then grouped them by builder (of which there were 140 unique ones) and found the average price.

Here's a list of boat builders in order of the most expensive average price on the market. I only included manufacturers that had 3 or more boats for sale as they have a less biased average. Any thoughts on this ranking?

 

 

 

Please provide links to 4 Harborough Marine built boats that have an average selling price of over £70K, and an average build date of 2008.

That beggars belief, as Harborough Marine have not built any boats in decades, I think.

I cannot imagine where your data is coming from - please provide the evidence that supports the spreadsheet.

EDIT:

As to "Any thoughts on this ranking?" - Yes, it seems to bear little correlation to who actually builds the better quality boats.  I'm not a fan of the  look of a Steve Huson boat for example, (biggest understatement of the day)!), but their ranking half way down the table is a clear nonsense.  Clearly an SMH boat of a given age is much higher valued in most people's mind than a Liverrpool boat or Mike Heywood boat of a similar age, (let alone Harborough!).

I think the only thing your analysis shows, (provided you have got it right, and some of it looks highly suspect), is that people have little sensible ide what price to put on their boats.

This will not help you make any good decision, I fear.

Edited August 18, 2018 by alan_fincher

[doratheexplorer]

9 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

I've done a bit more research into valuing boat builders, and I thought I'd share it with you guys to hear your thoughts.

 

I created a big list of all 300 narrowboats on Apollo Duck that are more than 10K and more than 47'. I then grouped them by builder (of which there were 140 unique ones) and found the average price.

Here's a list of boat builders in order of the most expensive average price on the market. I only included manufacturers that had 3 or more boats for sale as they have a less biased average. Any thoughts on this ranking?

 

 

Your research is likely to lead to utter confusion. 

 

As an example,  your list includes 3 Calcutt boats, average 1976, average price £49k.  This is just nonsense.  I've just checked - there are 4 Calcutt boats current on the Duck.  None were built prior to the 1980s although one doesnt list its age.  I guess this skewed your result?  Also your average price is massively skewed by this: https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=561711 

 

It's a 120k Calcutt boat but you're not really paying for the boat, you're paying for the mooring near London.  Still a ridiculous price though.

 

Finally, lower down the list you have Andicraft Fabrications.  Andicraft make the steel shells for Calcutt to fit out, so they're basically two stages of the same boat.  Calcutt don't fabricate steel, Andicraft don't fit out interiors.  Andicraft also provide shells to private buyers to fit out themselves.

 

Bear in mind, that was just an example.  Pretty much every part of your list could be torn apart in a similar way.

 

Boat buying doesn't work like this. 

 

Go and look at some boats, compare them.  Build your own hands on knowledge of what you want.

 

 

Oh and also, there are 4 Calcutt boats on the Duck, not 3.

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

Go and look at some boats, compare them.  Build your own hands on knowledge of what you want.

^^^^^^^This!