Rank these boat builders!

[Richard10002]

That's why you must have a full out of the water survey. You've done your best to select the right boat, and you pay the surveyor to help make sure you are correct.

 

If you don't buy after the survey, you should not view it as a thousand pounds or so lost, as it actually represents many thousands of pounds saved.

 

I'm conscious of the builder bit not being your sole focus, but the fact that it features means that you might avoid the best boat for you.

 

Our story :

 

I started researching narrowboats a year before I had the money. When I has the money in August 2012, I knew roughly what I was looking for, missed a few because they sold before I was ready to offer. Then, I saw a rough looking 45ft cruiser for £18k, viewed it 2 days later with my wife, went for a cuppa at the marina cafe, and we both said we should buy it as fast as possible, for the asking price. I asked the surveyor where was the catch, the reason it was so cheap and that we shouldn't buy it, and he said there was no catch and, if I didn't buy it, he would. He happily valued it at £26k for insurance purposes, and we didn't dare try to negotiate over the few bits and pieces he found "wrong". It was ours a few days later.

 

Turns out it was a Gary Gorton hull with a Black Meadow fit out. Not many here had even heard of Gary Gorton, but the surveyor said he was good hull builder. I say that because, if you came across a Gary Gorton boat, your research would not encourage you to race to view. I saw a few Hallmark boats that I would happily have offered on as well, despite their being at the budget end of the market when new.

[jetzi]

2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

That's why you must have a full out of the water survey. You've done your best to select the right boat, and you pay the surveyor to help make sure you are correct.

Thanks, I'm indeed convinced that the full out of water survey is important. The only worry for me there is that insisting on a survey might mean we lose a boat that someone else is happy to take without a survey.

Would you still consider the survey important if the boat has had one in the last year or so? I see many of the boats advertised mention a recent survey as a selling point. I'd imagine that having your own survey is still important to make sure there have not been issues that have developed since the survey, and that the survey is done as independently of the seller as possible.

[Athy]

37 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Thanks, I'm indeed convinced that the full out of water survey is important. The only worry for me there is that insisting on a survey might mean we lose a boat that someone else is happy to take without a survey.

 

Then you can console yourselves by thinking about the thousands which they may have to pay out in the not-too-distant future when something goes phut! or splosh!

[Movin' on]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Then you can console yourselves by thinking about the thousands which they may have to pay out in the not-too-distant future when something goes phut! or splosh!

Totally agree - don’t ever be pressured or feel pressured into buying without a survey

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Thanks, I'm indeed convinced that the full out of water survey is important. The only worry for me there is that insisting on a survey might mean we lose a boat that someone else is happy to take without a survey.

Would you still consider the survey important if the boat has had one in the last year or so? I see many of the boats advertised mention a recent survey as a selling point. I'd imagine that having your own survey is still important to make sure there have not been issues that have developed since the survey, and that the survey is done as independently of the seller as possible.

Then lose the boat! You have no way of knowing if the seller is telling you the truth about there being someone willing to buy without a survey, or whether they are trying to get you to take it without a survey because of all the issues they know a survey will reveal. Lots of devious sellers of all kinds of things out there, including our biggest purchase which are boats, cars and houses.

 

A recent survey is handy in the sense that it reassures you that the boat was in the condition stated at the time of the survey. However... things change, surveyors miss things, and sellers can be devious so, as someone with little/no knowledge of boats, you are ripe for the plucking unless you pay an expert to carry out a detailed inspection, and take some contractual responsibility for what he/she puts in writing, (not a massive responsibility because the survey will have lots of get out clauses, but they do have a reputation to maintain if they are well known, reputable, and recommended). 

[70liveaboard]

Having bought many boat shells throughout the years and dealt with many builders. I do know myself, that buying based on name alone, is not good. I have had many shells from various builders, some still around, but most, sadly gone now. Many of the builders back when I was buying, that had a reputation for higher quality boat shells, did have some unhealthy build practices.

Mike Heywood, great bloke, mate at the time, but take one of his shells and not add to it (cabin wise with further section), would in my eye's, be bad for later years. Now mike had a great rep as a builder, one of the top back then, so do his near and dear nowadays. But certainly back then they built boats that used less steel in them than the likes of liverpool, pkb, hallmark, buckle, white etc, etc.

 

But who's right, they may have been right to under build, others may have been right to overbuild..

 

[alan_fincher]

7 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

Mike Heywood, great bloke, mate at the time, but take one of his shells and not add to it (cabin wise with further section), would in my eye's, be bad for later years. Now mike had a great rep as a builder, one of the top back then, so do his near and dear nowadays. But certainly back then they built boats that used less steel in them than the likes of liverpool, pkb, hallmark, buckle, white etc, etc.

 

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense, isn't it?

 

I'm not surprised the OP is confused about what builders to seek out, and which to positively avoid, with this kind of stuff in the thread!

[Athy]

24 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense, isn't it?

 

I'm not surprised the OP is confused about what builders to seek out, and which to positively avoid, with this kind of stuff in the thread!

I was unclear as to whether MH used too thin a gauge of steel, or whether he did not extend his cabins far enough forward or backward.

Aren't PKB and Pat Buckle the same firm?

[alan_fincher]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

I was unclear as to whether MH used too thin a gauge of steel, or whether he did not extend his cabins far enough forward or backward.

Aren't PKB and Pat Buckle the same firm?

 

Perhaps if some effort were made to explain where the steel is lacking in a Heywood boat that all these other builders manage to use, but Heywood didn't we would at least have something we could discuss, (and probably refute by our own observations).

 

However this anecdotal "I've seen loads of boats, and if only you knew what I knew" posts are completely unhelpful, with nothing to back up the claims being made.

As I said, i'm not surprised the OP is confused.

[MtB]

17 hours ago, Athy said:

Then you can console yourselves by thinking about the thousands which they may have to pay out in the not-too-distant future when something goes phut! or splosh!

 

15 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Then lose the boat! 

 

 

<rant>

 

Posts like this are commonplace on here and I find them disappointingly short-sighted, trite even. They completely ignore the sheer time, effort and expense (all those trips to various places in the UK) needed to find a suitable boat at a price to suit the OP's extremely limited budget. Then there is the emotional cost in dashed hopes if losing the boat to another buyer more willing to take a chance, more uncertainly and more lost cruising time as this summer 'cruising season' slips away.

 

Given the OP is needing a screaming bargain there is an element of risk in buying a lemon, but they are in no position to be picky. Posters on here are very prone to exaggerating this risk beyond all reason. The chances are very much higher of getting a perfectly good boat by just holding one's nose and jumping, and stopping worrying about the million things that could (but probably won't) go wrong.

 

So dear OP, don't feel obliged to take this advice to ALWAYS get a survey or lose the boat. I have bought six boats over the years and none with a survey. (In fact my most recent boat I negotiated 20% off the (already reasonable) price by shaking hands on the deal and giving a deposit on first viewing) and none turned out to be an unexpected disaster. 

 

Have a close examination of your personal attitude to risk and balance that with your desire to get boating, then make a rational decision as to whether you are willing to forgo a survey in order to 'win' a boat you really want at a bargain price, as and when you find one. Do this before you find this perfect boat, obviously

 

</rant>

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[Athy]

MtB writes, of course, from considerable personal experience. But it is exactly because of his extensive experience and knowledge of boats that he's able to spot a good one. The O.P. has not yet acquired that experience, and I don't think that suggestions that he err on the side of caution are misplaced.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

MtB writes, of course, from considerable personal experience. 

 

Indeed I do, and it is that experience and the resulting perspective that leads me to offer the advice I just offered.

 

And bear in mind I hand NO experience when I bought my first boat, very little on my second, a degree of experience on my third, etc etc and nothing went wrong.

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

The O.P. has not yet acquired that experience, and I don't think that suggestions that he err on the side of caution are misplaced.

 

You're STILL doing it. Can you explain WHY you think the OP should err on the side of caution and ignore his keenness to get boating? I suggest it i because you are applying your own attitude to risk to his circumstances. Let him arrive at this delicate judgement for himself.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[bizzard]

A while ago we had a chap here with a 12' 6'' widebeam boat bought new and built by a very so called bespoke builder, who I won't mention. Doing some work on it I discovered some really horrid cock ups and short cuts. One side was 6'' longer than the other. The engine installation was appalling, so much misaligned that it ruined the stern tube which I had to renew and re-align the engine properly because he disn't trust them to come out and fix it, when it was in dry dock for blacking. It had dreadful tiller vibration too, it shook the daylights out of you. The fit out was equally as bad, done by BIG FISH., who I believe are not in business anymore. The ceiling panelling all fell down in the lounge with dampness. It appeared that the calorifier, batteries and whatnot were just bunged onto the swims and connected up before painting swims, you could see that they'd painted around everything afterwards, terrible, and rain water soon caused horrid very deep rusty pits. The owner got fed up with keep calling them out to fix things, which is why I did some of the jobs. He soon after gor rid of it. But bought another from another builder which I think seems to be ok.

[Richard10002]

37 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Given the OP is needing a screaming bargain there is an element of risk in buying a lemon, but they are in no position to be picky. Posters on here are very prone to exaggerating this risk beyond all reason. The chances are very much higher of getting a perfectly good boat by just holding one's nose and jumping, and stopping worrying about the million things that could (but probably won't) go wrong.

That is the opposite end of the risk spectrum, (in terms of getting someone who knows about boats to have a look at it for you), to the one I am recommending - and that's fine - the OP now has 2 opposing opinions and will obviously make his own decision based upon his attitude to risk. My perception from a whole number of posts is that his attitude to risk is particularly low. ...... borrowing £25k of the £30k.... can't afford to lose much/anything if we have to sell sooner or later.... are regular features in comments.

 

My own view/s on surveys, and the time taken, are in my previous post but I think bear repeating....

 

1) if you spend £1000 or so, and you don't buy it because it is a lemon, it was definitely money well spent, as it avoids expenditure, and/or loss, well in excess of the investment.

 

2) "Deciding to buy a boat without a survey" is different to "buying without one because a seller tells you that there is no time to have a survey" because someone else is ready to hand over the money without one. (I hope that makes sense). In the short term, you will never know whether there really is somebody else, or whether they are trying to sell a lemon. It would be something that would raise my suspicions, as the nicest people can be the most devious - and so on.

 

3) In addition, I have said a few times on here that the survey I had on my boat in 2011 has been extremely helpful in guiding me with respect to maintenance and repair over the years, and I regularly refer to it as a document which itemises everything on the boat. Was it worth it just for this - No! Is this an added bonus that people dont think about when handing over the money, (or not handing over the money) - Yes!

 

4) There is always another boat, house, car, that you can buy

 

and so it goes on.

 

If the OP circumstances and approach were different, my thoughts might/would differ.

 

It's probably good that the OP has your view, as well as mine... neither of us will be alone in how we think, so there is no right answer.

 

 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

That is the opposite end of the risk spectrum, (in terms of getting someone who knows about boats to have a look at it for you), to the one I am recommending - and that's fine - the OP now has 2 opposing opinions and will obviously make his own decision based upon his attitude to risk. My perception from a whole number of posts is that his attitude to risk is particularly low. ...... borrowing £25k of the £30k.... can't afford to lose much/anything if we have to sell sooner or later.... are regular features in comments.

 

My own view/s on surveys, and the time taken, are in my previous post but I think bear repeating....

 

1) if you spend £1000 or so, and you don't buy it because it is a lemon, it was definitely money well spent, as it avoids expenditure, and/or loss, well in excess of the investment.

Fine if you have the budget for a mid or upper range boat. The OP needs a bargain so offering even lower to fund a survey simply may lose them the boat anyway

 

2) "Deciding to buy a boat without a survey" is different to "buying without one because a seller tells you that there is no time to have a survey" because someone else is ready to hand over the money without one. (I hope that makes sense). In the short term, you will never know whether there really is somebody else, or whether they are trying to sell a lemon. It would be something that would raise my suspicions, as the nicest people can be the most devious - and so on.

Agreed. The scenario I was suggesting is the OP seeing a boat, liking it and offering to buy it there and then on the spot with no survey for (say) £5k off the asking price of £35k. This is extremely tempting to a seller who has had six people already agree a low price THEN say, "oh but I'll need a survey obviously, when can I take your boat out of the water? And will you deliver it to the dock and if it all looks ok THEN I'll buy it in five weeks time."

Willingness to forgo a survey can save you a LOT of folding stuff. I got £8k off my last boat this way. Enough to fund quite a lot of repairs.

 

3) In addition, I have said a few times on here that the survey I had on my boat in 2011 has been extremely helpful in guiding me with respect to maintenance and repair over the years, and I regularly refer to it as a document which itemises everything on the boat. Was it worth it just for this - No! Is this an added bonus that people dont think about when handing over the money, (or not handing over the money) - Yes!

A luxury the OP is in no position to afford

 

4) There is always another boat, house, car, that you can buy

At what cost in delays, disappointment, traveling expenses, rarity of 70ft £30k boats?

 

and so it goes on.

 

If the OP circumstances and approach were different, my thoughts might/would differ.

 

It's probably good that the OP has your view, as well as mine... neither of us will be alone in how we think, so there is no right answer.

Which is why I keep floating the opposing view. If I didn't, the OP might think he was an idiot for even considering buying a bargain basement boat with no survey after losing perhaps several good candidates over say a summer. He can now make an informed judgement having analysed his own circumstances and attitudes to risk. 

 

 

 

[70liveaboard]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense, isn't it?

 

I'm not surprised the OP is confused about what builders to seek out, and which to positively avoid, with this kind of stuff in the thread!

You thinking its all about steel plate thickness, or are there other parts to make up a boat. I think I made it clear.

 

There is no real experience in this thread other than from a boat builder who knows the industry backwards. Knew many of the people building and has handled more boats than you all have owned together, plus much more.

Unfortunately that is why I said, right at the start. To come here for advice regards boats is just not good.

 

Its a boaters forum, not a boat builders forum. Buying boats doesn't make you any type of expert, nor does working on them unless your a engineer/fabricator/welder, you have to build them to know what your talking about. Its clear here that no one has, I exclude myself from that..

 

I have to correct myself, I said experience in this thread, it would be more to the point if I said, whole board really.

Edited July 29, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, 70liveaboard said:

You thinking its all about steel plate thickness, or are there other parts to make up a boat. I think I made it clear.

You need to stop assuming, and actually read what people have written and have not written.

I have not said anything at all about steel plate thickness, if you actually go back and take a proper look.

I notice you have not backed up your claims about Heywood boats with actual facts, just taken a poke at just about everybody else on the forum.

 

Go on - explain exactly where all this steel is that (say) a Liverpool Boat would contain beyond that found in a Heywood one.

 

[bizzard]

[Movin' on]

This was a good topic/thread can we get back on track please

[70liveaboard]

27 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

You need to stop assuming, and actually read what people have written and have not written.

I have not said anything at all about steel plate thickness, if you actually go back and take a proper look.

I notice you have not backed up your claims about Heywood boats with actual facts, just taken a poke at just about everybody else on the forum.

 

Go on - explain exactly where all this steel is that (say) a Liverpool Boat would contain beyond that found in a Heywood one.

 

Stiffeners, measure to centre, how many used and so on. But I won't bother to ask how many Mike used, you wouldn't know anyway, nor would anyone on here. I know however.

Also section thickness/grade. Stitch weld for stiffeners, how long per stitch, both sides etc etc. Should they be fully welded, is a base welded both sides or 'v'ed out, which is better ?????

Plate will not hold a boat together for long.

 

Its a long way from any real experience on here. Just back slapping a buyer for knowing its a boat.. Money doesn't make a boat builder, I can buy plenty of cars, and have, doesn't make me an expert on cars.. I can fit a fuse in a car, still no expert, how about changing a tyre.. you get my point. Although you won't, just back slap some very inexperienced novice, there are plenty on here.

 

Anyone coming here for boat buying experience, please don't go have a word with a boat builder, if they have the time, that is..

 

I would add one thing for any buyer, the boat in question here has been afloat since the late 80's, so its a good chance, it will float for many more years. However, when you come to replate, which you may. Then find a builder with experience, to re-plate a boat that doesn't have the right makeup can be very costly. The right makeup isn't his name, its how he/she put it together. The builder that re-plates should want to know this.

Mike built great boats, we added to those, what other people did, I'm not sure, that was upto them. I know a few that added after delivery.

 

Of course your unimpressed rusty69, your a novice, like your back slapping comrades..

Edited July 29, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[rusty69]

Well, there you have it OP. Go and see all the boatbuilders of your intended second hand boat (if they are still in business) and ask them if they think their boats are any good Spose you could go and see a boatbulider and ask them what they think of their competitors boats.

[Movin' on]

Let’s give these guys a break and get back to user advice of which there is a lot on here and of good quality

 

At least they aren’t trying to cc a 60x12 widebeam around London on HB and expecting (cos it’s their right) to place their little darlings in the best schools in the most expensive city in the world (sorry there goes my hobby horse again) 

 

The OP and family are trying to add value to the system for all the right reasons and are asking the right forum for general guidance from others with real experiences - good and bad

[Tonka]

I/we  bought a 50ft Mike Heywood in 1986. It was 3 years old when we bought it. We did not have it surveyed. On the voyage home from Lymm the prop shaft coupling kept breaking. We had this rectified by MH at Hoo Mill. We sold it in 1999 having no major work done on the boat. Problems that we had during owner ship was the wooden handrails went rotten so we welded on tramlines. Had to remove some of the polystyrene lining to enable us to weld which was replaced after. The toilet holding tank was part of the hull structure as was the shower tray so the tray was painted with bitumen regularly. The metal thickness was 6 mm hull bottom and sides with a 3 mm cabin sides and top. So you can see why the shower tray had regular maintenance. Water tank was also part of the structure being in the gas locker area but again I regularly got in it via the hatch and painted it. The front well and seats were all one part and had been installed at slightly the wrong angle which resulted in it not self draining fully. The gas locker was in the engine room and had water in the bottom constantly which was a bad thing. When we sold her there was no bilge pump fitted. The boat is still going and was sold in the last couple of years by VC at Iver. Please ask if you need any further details.

Forgot to mention that the roof did flex when walked on. She had a 1.5 British Leyland and we were based on the Thames. We never had any keel cooling problems which have been mentioned on this thread as being his Achilles heel even when pushing the current when river on red boards

Edited July 29, 2018 by Tonka
more info

[Athy]

Good information, Tonka.

Gas locker in the engine room? Has that ever been legal or safe?

[Ray T]

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

Good information, Tonka.

Gas locker in the engine room? Has that ever been legal or safe?

Our Reeves boat has that. The locker however is isolated by a metal casing. Passed all its BSC exams with this arrangement. Hasten to add the wood work has been tidied up and revarnished since the photos were taken.

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Ray T