70liveaboard

Hello OP welcome. It's one of those forums you come back to after long absences, well we do.

OP I don't think there would be much of a problem leaving a porti loo half full, other than smell maybe.

I've heard of both of these builders Jaris and D&G in Hull. Years melt away, when names are mentioned. I read your post above about Hallmark Narrowboats, they are/were very good builders. Also Clubline and Mike Heywood who I knew too. Did you want any info about Mike ?

Nice surprise Hallmark boats, I'm a fan of them, do you have one ? Your right about the range name.

Even more fun increasing the size of the pic's. Amazing what you get to see.. But people will make their own decisions on fab quality, weld (or lack of it), weld quality, cuts etc.. oh, and of course fake rivets..

I'm assuming the machine gun rivets are probably fake ones, seeing as its a Brinklow. Plus who put the bulkhead in between the engine room and main cabin.. the apprentice perhaps.. ? How many pieces to make a bulkhead, only Brinklow knows.. lol Some fool with too much money will buy it no doubt.. But it's so over priced, looking at the shell itself, its really just funny.

If the year of this is right and the length 45ft (although marked here as 44), then this is a 'Tradline' from Hallmark. Tradline was their fully traditional, classed as a lower mid range boat. Don't see many of these around at all. I know they built quite a number of trads, semi trads etc. But they were their standard mid/upper mid range, to higher end, depending on customer spec, with standard steel spec of 10/6/4 (standard for the 90's really), or above, as was the 70ft in this thread (iirc 10/8/5/4). Not sure of the spec of the Tradline one's, but I'll try and find out. Anyway: https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/hallmark-44-traditional/619607

It would be silly to take this to court. Simply drive up and talk to them at the office. The family have built boats for decades and are, on the whole, reasonable. So just go direct, phone email is always a waste of time, best to talk face to face. Side note, Stan died towards the end of last year, which was a big thing for the family, I do believe Collingwood is simply Liverpool Boats (etc). But back in the day Liverpool had a seperate 'fully fitted' boat business that ran seperate to the shell side. But that was a very long time ago, not sure how things panned out over the subsequent years. They probably decided to merge everything into one and why not. They have probably built the most shells of any builder ( by far, probably), so know the building side very well. Stan used to dive with John White, he told me, it was over that they fell out. I think they started building as a team very early on, not sure, just going from our conversations and the impression I got. Stan would never tell you everything. Overall I liked Stan a lot, even though I did get on the wrong side of him occasionally (you don't want to do that, well not with Stan). But we had a very good friendly working relationship, even having drinks at the 'Yacht' club of which he was a member.. (Yacht club in Liverpool.. what next..) I was sad to hear of his death, it was an end of an era in boatbuilding for many people in the industry, from way back anyway. The boats they have produced, well, I just wonder where all these boats go sometimes, think of all the steel going onto the canals in the UK..

Hallmark supplied shells to other builders from their Newark fabrication workshop. But I'm pretty sure Calcutt was not one of them.

The welds were always left as they were (budget range) on earlier shells ie. pre 95/early 96'. Plus all rub strakes were fully welded top and intervals bottom. Earlier 'show' boats that went to agents, were built by contracted shell builders. Hallmark did initially have the boats fall very much inside 'budget', because the early boats were very cheap indeed, a 35' being under £16,000, so welded top strakes were as yours is. Later as prices increased due to demand, they altered their view on welding and fully welded top strakes and ground (to a degree elsewhere). Very few boats went out without fully welded top strakes, so that is what makes me think this is an early or ex show boat. Don't forget they built usual narrowboats (higher prices), when I say usual, I mean non budget. The budget range was simply to get people afloat, that may not have been able to otherwise. That worked very well. My thinking is, yours may be prior to 96', some show boats were kept at agents for some time, then brought back to tidy up and sell when they were renewed. That is not to say it's not a 98', it may well have been first user/launched in 98' (as new, because it was new, had just been standing on hard standing as a show boat prior, so not used). Standard spec for the budget range: 6mm base 5mm hull sides 3mm cabin

A rather nice 40ft from Hallmark. The engine bay and stern deck have really been kept clean, plus renewed. Another Hallmark that has increased its price. I have been following Hallmarks for some years and have not seen one yet, that has sold for less than bought for new.. These are the builders that hold their prices well, Liverpool is much the same, D Clarke, John White, Jaris, PKB and many other mid range builders are the ones that most sensible boaters go for, if they want a return later when selling. https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/hallmark-40-cruiser-stern/618878

Bus Bulbs.. 12v

I think anyone that can afford a boat plus the required licence has a right to be on the canal/river. The fact a boat is a little unkempt is really not an issue. If they moor and start using the public towpath as a sort of garden area, ie. putting everything out there. Then they become a problem. I was talking to a builder friend over the past few days. We wondered where saturation point might be. I remember being asked this back in the mid 90's by a Vetus rep. After pumping out (building) larg'ish numbers of boats and the friend I was talking too (plus his brother), also pumping out even more numbers over decades. Makes one wonder if there really is a saturation point at all. Or, if money (licence income etc) means everything and the waterways would have to come to a complete standstill for them to think... Ah, perhaps there are too many boats..

I missed this. Well hello Baz No I don't build now (retired), my son does though. Thanks for the nod towards the pic, I did ask someone you know/knew pretty well, he said it would be o.k. How is your Chris, is he still around building, I know you do. Haven't been intouch at all, time passes so quickly. Hope all is well.

Last shell I bought from Liverpool was when Stan was firmly in charge back in mid 90's. Didn't see any really bad welding or fabrication, but they were straight forward honest boats, not the best by any means, but they didn't hide what they were. Welds were solid and the fabrication was fairly well done, grinding was flush (no more than flush.. well..). Overall Liverpool was a solid boat that keeps it's price well. People that pay big money can afford to lose that money and are not bothered when their boat depreciates like a brick. They tend to shout the loudest that theirs is the best boat, but it isn't, not from a builders point of view. Just look at sales down the road. Only boats that hold prices are good boats. Certainly for the sensible boater. Many builders seen as high end (only by punters) treat customers (behind backs) like s***. Those builders start to believe that they can charge whatever they like and treat folk however they want. It's not the builders fault, it's the fault of those that stick them on a pedestal that they're really not worthy of being on. All boats have distortion, many grinds are over done etc, lack of structure, stiffeners, strengthening. They grind it right back then fill it, plus fill out the distortion. I and many builders laugh when those that think they know boats say "look at the lines on that, how straight it is". When most builders and people that do know what they're looking at just stand there thinking how much bog went into it. Fake rivets, bog and more, tend to be the choice of some builders, that many punters/boaters tend to say are higher end, mostly because they're kept away from the building process. Builders know however who is worth the praise, rarely who the buying public think. There is nothing wrong with bog in boats, if you want a lovely paint job. Just don't mistake it for fabrication or welding ie; lines. All steel shells look pretty straight until painted. The builder knows that, so some builders fill the hell out of a shell when the paint goes on and tells the customer, it brings out the great lines, when really it's, smoke and mirrors.

Full of bog, as they say. Honest boats don't use bog or fake rivets..

Provided it is considered part of the shell, then it passes o.k. So welded on is part of the shell. We'd stamp the HIN on the counter usually, little neater.

OP. I understand the idea of having something different, not the norm if you like. Problem a builder would have is time and space. There will be a builder that will build the boat you want, however it all depends on time it takes and the space your boat stands in, in the workshop. That will all translate to money/cost. Perhaps something to think about would be a lined sailaway, perhaps with a galley/loo as temp. Then let loose a joiner to do what you want. Time is just his/yours and the space will probably be on your mooring. That way, you may get the boat within your budget. Edit and just to add. My ideal boat would be a Tardis.. Narrow on the outside.. Widebeam inside..

@oldngrumpy I'd just like some more on that 'Chine' looks fairly close to the weld from the pic there. Some things boatbuilders can't do, ie. know how the boat will corrode over years, depends greatly on the owners. But giving enough of something to start with, i.e. extra steel, builders can do, that is more rub protection where needed. There isn't enough there, for me anyway.

@deeplock Forgot to mention and can't edit now, so, ask the fitter to use sound baffles for air intake and outlet. They are very easy to make and can be incorporated into the box design and will reduce sound further still. Use the same insulation for the baffles. Edit: if you want to snazz the box up a little 'exterior wise', 6082t6 aluminium sheet is not too expensive.

@deeplock Quick rundown for you: Sound proof box, 18mm wbp ply, lined as below.. Not sure you would need to mount, should be o.k. just as it comes. The box and generator will require all the below, fitter will advise, as I said prior. Before having the box made, have your fitter know where outlets etc need to be placed. Insulation for the box: Laminated thermal acoustic sound proofing 10-25mm thick.. Must be 'non flamable' and also 'flame retardent. Usually foil lined or similar (engine bay sound proofing).. Thickness will depend on sound (db output), so think on and get advise from whoever your fitter is. Exhaust: you may need to get this made, quite easily made by a fabricator or there may be an outlet (I think there are on these genny sets) onboard to directly link too, fitter will advise. Also a silencer could be added standard, fitter will advise. However, you may not need an additional exhaust, i.e. the generator's exhaust could be channeled to hull side via ducting from the box, fitter will advise. That will depend on box location really. Fan (air supply): a fan will be required to give the generator 'box' installation plenty of air. This will require ducting from hull side, again fitter will advise. If located in engine bay, use 'semi rigid aluminium ducting. Fan should run directly from genny. Any air intake will be better from the side of the hull that has 'no' exhaust... Extractor vent (or fan): Baffle or similar type vent to side of hull. Again depending on genny location, i.e. if in engine bay use the semi rigid type ducting as above. It may be adisable to fit an extractor fan here too, but fitter will advise. Probably wouldn't need it. Additional insulation: consider insulating the engine bay, this will also add a reduction in sound maybe 10db or so. Well worth it if your buying insulation for the box. Get it at the same time. Fuel side: fitter will need to have this fed from onboard tank (regs, air etc) if below deck. So fuel pipe, possible pump, fittings etc, would be required and the removal of onboard fuel tank. Not difficult or hard to do, for experienced engineer/fitter. If the box is to stand on your deck, say incorporated as a seat or so, then you can use the onboard fuel tank if you want (again get advice) cheaper and easier.. The electrical side is where the regs get really stringent. So use a qualified sparky, as I said before. All the generator side will be covered for safety. But that safety has to apply to boat side. So, consumer unit, RCD (trips etc), changeover switch incorporated ie. shore to genny etc.. Again your sparky will advise. (Ask about MCB too) A Hyundai 7kw portable genny can be used (around £1400), if fitted correctly. This comes as 'silent' in box genny, but silent will be 70db @ 7mtrs, which is perfectly legal to use anywhere more or less. However, the box will bring that down considerably, possibly to 50-55db or so. Underdeck will also add db reduction, insulated engine bay much more too. If done right, you could have it up and running with around a 40db or so sound output. Completely self sufficient power wise when cruising or moored. As I said before, just use the right people/fitter. That is of course if you want to go electric onboard. That shown above, should be enough power for a house, so o.k. for your.. very large boat..

Why I even lower myself to answer you and your cronies is frankly mind boggling for me. --To put this more clearly people, I aim this at the normal everyday folk that tend to post little and avoid this crowd, but would enjoy a forum free of these... Well, I'll leave out what I really think about them.. suffice to say, just check 'march of the wide beam' thread plus many, infact most threads that these cronies hang around in (which ends up all of them, because they are all knowledgeable ?, in their own minds that is). See what and how it simply degenerates, which seems an apt word here.-- Anyway, to my response god only knows why and my last time with any of these people: amaresearch... Diesel generation continues to be... blah blah &.. in the domestic and 'leisure' market has increased year on year since.......blah, blah No I'll stop myself there, they're really not worth the time of day to answer too.. ______ @deeplock, its up to you my friend. Check with the surveyor and builder, plus others around the area that have boats (large ones) that generate their own (off grid) power. How they do it and with what. That's the best advice I can think of. I'll leave your thread too you and the others. I said what I have to say anyway.

Not the carry type.. I think Ford do one already in a sound proof box. Most all generators will have to be CE marked, certainly from EU. Marine use is/was a grey area, that is why I said ask the surveyor and indeed fitter.. When I say frame, I mean the frame it is stood on, I suppose 'engine bed' perhaps, may be clearer. If a generator is on a frame/bed, then yes it will have mounts within the case (small rubber or similar). That should be o.k. to fit. Again ask fitter & surveyor. But a further set of mounts might make it less noisy and reduce vibration, depends where your advised for location and so on. @Deeplock, plus shop around, do not, repeat, do not, go through marine industry, unless you can get a trade price. Find out the type you can use via the surveyor, which I already stated for you and then source the product. Possibly buy through your builder, he owes you one anyway. Shipping in from abroad could well be cheaper, if shipped in from an EU country it will have the CE mark. Just check with a surveyor prior to buying if the model your thinking of is o.k. for use on a boat. A set of paper specs for the generator, should be enough for a surveyor to decide. I've said all this in the post. Shame people don't read. To make things easier place the generator topside and make a seat or whatever to cover. That could open up other types of generator sets to use and will not need exhaust etc. Just ask around, best the surveyor, he will no doubt have tested boats with generator sets fitted. Edit: I am surprised and indeed perplexed as these are the most widely used type of power generation for the leisure industry for the larger leisure vessels/craft & vehicles etc. But no one here seems to know that.. Batteries just don't do the job larger vessels need really. I'll leave it to you @deeplock, just use the right people and if you want to look further into a generator set to use, ask the surveyor when you see him, if he has any thoughts on it. He may well have another idea, better still..

You got to bare in mind @deeplock, there are a few here that 'only their advice will do'. Plus of course they will turn out the worst case scenario to suit their own cause.. Check other threads, recently too.. It's scaremongering to suit them and their way of seeing things. Novice way, unfortunately Buying/making a good sound proof box is not difficult, should one be needed. There are frame mounted generators already in sound proof boxes. Also where I said a fitter, I meant a 'fitter', someone that is qualified in diesel installations ie. engines & generators. The difference between a generator and engine are what they are attached to. A frame based generator can be easily fitted by a diesel engineer/fitter. Of course some people (easily noticed) will turn out worse case scenarios, but again bare in mind they are fitted to hundreds of thousands of inland craft, plus off shore craft, yachts, motorhomes, trucks, even some caravans have them fitted. I'm not sure where they thought I said diy exhaust, or where I said don't give it air, or indeed use an aftermarket generator.. I didn't say any of that, but read and you'll decide. I said a fitter would give you that info and what bits they would need. So take advice with care. Just use the right people to fit important items.. But regards generator, easily fitted by a good engineer, in or out of a sound proof box, this is why I said, 'get a demo', find out how loud, what can help to reduce noise etc.. I don't spin things, I just give genuine advice. I won't find a worse case scenario to fit my view/opinion, it's your boat you decide. But again think of the hundreds of thousands of people that use fitted diesel generators in all sorts of application as mentioned above plus many more. And haven't died because of it. But it's your choice. Take all advice and then decide. The comment about my advice being fatal, is frankly rubbish.. But expected from that poster of course..

Your not going to run an oven, hob etc on batteries, don't even think you'll be happy with that at all. You will spend most of your day worrying about battery levels. Go gas really, for cooking, heating. But just for info, regards generator:.. & they are very good. There are 6-7kva 'on demand' framed generators available for under £2000 ex fitting. But the fitting, provided you can locate somewhere to put it, won't be hugely expensive (depends what part of the country your in). Frame generators are complete already mounted in the frame, so the frame itself could be welded in place, or you could put in additional flexi mounts. You will need a fixed fuel supply, plus exhaust and the electric side to the boat services & batteries, will have to be done by a qualified electrician.. If you go for diesel then you only have the one tank to worry about and you have that already. The fitter will tell you what he would require, bits wise. Obviously if the generators fuel input was to be fitted above the lowest part of the diesel tank then a pump will be required etc. But there may be space on the base plate, I can't tell with little to go on, if it can be put lower than the fuel tank, the generator could be gravity fed. Framed generators come mounted within the frame, but the generator will need to be secured in place, surveyor will tell you more, plus regards any reg requirements. A 'on demand' generator will give you constant power provided there is fuel, i.e. when you turn something on, the generator starts up, when you turn off the item, the generator stops. Plus it will charge batteries and run power sockets around the boat, whilst taking care of the oven/hob, washer, dryer, etc, etc ( possibly not all on at once;) ). You would be best to go for a 'silent' running gen. They are not silent, but they are the quietest type, you'll still have some noise, but that depends on what is running. The more you run the louder the noise, but you could probably get a demo first somewhere. It all sounds too complicated and indeed it is, so go gas. Gas is the easiest way, however a generator, certainly for living aboard in such a large vessel, is the better way. Just my opinion. __ Anyway.. When the builder arrives, you only need to tell him one thing, "get that counter (some call it the uxter) in the water by an inch or two". Don't let them leave without either doing that, or arranging a day to do it and asap. If it means them taking up the floor (and indeed doing it right), so be it.. It's their problem. The main thing is, stop worrying, I'm sure they will get you sorted out.