Rank these boat builders!

[doratheexplorer]

2 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

[ this research seems to be so out of kilter with reality that it may lead Ivan to conclude that a Liverpool boat is of higher quality than a Hudson, or that a 1976 Calcutt Boat is worth more than a 2006 Tim Tyler Boat ]

 

That is what I was pointing out, no need to be confused.

 

Just why he believes that 'reality' not sure who's, has it that this is wrong, that Liverpool boats are in some way inferior to Hudson. Asking to point out why he thinks that. I would ask others to do the same, taking away any perceived hierarchy of builder.

 

 

What exactly led you to think of me as a 'he'? ?

 

Now that the list has been updated, you'll see that the average price of a Hudson is around twice that of a Liverpool, which is the point I was making.  I've tried to explain this already a couple of times already, I was trying to help the OP by pointing out that the list didn't make any sense.  The new list looks about right.  I still think he would have been better off going to view some boats rather than diddling around on a computer.

[70liveaboard]

32 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

What exactly led you to think of me as a 'he'? ?

 

Now that the list has been updated, you'll see that the average price of a Hudson is around twice that of a Liverpool, which is the point I was making.  I've tried to explain this already a couple of times already, I was trying to help the OP by pointing out that the list didn't make any sense.  The new list looks about right.  I still think he would have been better off going to view some boats rather than diddling around on a computer.

Sorry if I mistook gender.

 

The list means nothing.

 

It is what the boats were bought and sold for. With an investment you need to know both ends. Of course Hudson boats will be more pricey, he sold them for more than twice as much. That said, you have to look at how much a Liverpool boat was bought for and how much, after so much use, however much that is.. it sold for. Same with Hudson.

 

Hudsons boats on the whole sell for quite a bit less than bought new, or indeed previously ie. second hand. This trend follows on through its life, albeit slowly or fast, depending on market, but they reduce more. I have seen this to be the case. I am not saying he didn't build a decent boat, I merely asked why would he be considered 'better', fact based on the actual building side and investment in boating i.e. ownership cost..

 

Liverpool boats tend to do the opposite. So if you buy a Liverpool boat, chances are you'll sell in ten years for a lesser hit on your initial investment, perhaps zero hit... The same would not be said for a Hudson, well I certainly doubt it.

 

Plus of course we have builders on the list twice.. (different names of course ).

 

And don't take this for.. Liverpool will sell at higher prices than a Hudson, they very rarely will. But that means nothing when they cost half the price. Its in comparison to the cost when new, the depreciation and owners 'heavy' replacement cost i.e. engine, steelwork. Main items not the central heating, cooker etc.

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[doratheexplorer]

6 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Sorry if I mistook gender.

 

The list means nothing.

 

It is what the boats were bought and sold for. With an investment you need to know both ends. Of course Hudson boats will be more pricey, he sold them for more than twice as much. That said, you have to look at how much a Liverpool boat was bought for and how much, after so much use, however much that is.. it sold for. Same with Hudson.

 

Hudsons boats on the whole sell for quite a bit less than bought new, or indeed previously ie. second hand. This trend follows on through its life, albeit slowly or fast, depending on market, but they reduce more. I have seen this to be the case. I am not saying he didn't build a decent boat, I merely asked why would he be considered 'better', fact based on the actual building side and investment in boating i.e. ownership cost..

 

Liverpool boats tend to do the opposite. So if you buy a Liverpool boat, chances are you'll sell in ten years for a lesser hit on your initial investment, perhaps zero hit... The same would not be said for a Hudson, well I certainly doubt it.

 

Plus of course we have builders on the list twice.. (different names of course ).

 

And don't take this for.. Liverpool will sell at higher prices than a Hudson, they very rarely will. But that means nothing when they cost half the price. Its in comparison to the cost when new, the depreciation and owners 'heavy' replacement cost i.e. engine, steelwork. Main items not the central heating, cooker etc.

 

 

[70liveaboard]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

Yeah, of course..

[Glynn]

Liverpool boats must be the most popular on the system,

[doratheexplorer]

I'll just leave this here...

 

https://www.greathaywoodboatsales.co.uk/shop/sarah-kay/

[LadyG]

Maybe I am out of order, but I came on here with little idea of what I wanted/needed/could afford.

In the last twelve months I have gone from a list of about thirty boats [mainly to get a sense of the market], to a list of a dozen. Two months ago, when I was ready to actually look at boats, there were only two that I could contemplate viewing, one was £36K and quirky, and the other £45K but conventional.

I could not use your spreadsheet to assist in pricing, and anyway price is not the main criteria. it is just one variable

The sale of my flat has not happened, I still maintain a list of about a dozen possibles. I can't really understand why such a detailed spreadsheet would be of much value as you are comparing apples and pears, a three year old child can tell an apple from a pear in an instant. 

PS I don't often respond to these posts as a whole lot of harpies will descend on me from above with unwanted and unhelpful comments 

Edited August 18, 2018 by LadyG

[roland elsdon]

You are entirely missing the point. Boats choose you not the other way round. They reflect who and what you are and your values, as well as your needs at the time.

i have had 40 foot colecraft cruiser, a composite unpowered butty, ( with a houseboat mooring) an converted yarwoods  motor, a converted station boat, and now a cut down but with 12 foot extension cabin motor. All very different, all at different life stages. Which do i regret selling , all bar the colecraft. 

Go and walk on a lot of boats, suddenly the light will go on, then you are in trouble.

[70liveaboard]

5 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'll just leave this here...

 

https://www.greathaywoodboatsales.co.uk/shop/sarah-kay/

How much was it new ? & its barely broken in as a boat..

 

And yes, there is someone out there to buy every boat, not saying there isn't. But your still implying Hudson is better. Why is Hudson better.. ?

Edited August 18, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[doratheexplorer]

Just now, LadyG said:

Maybe I am out of order, but I came on here with little idea of what I wanted/needed/could afford.

In the last twelve months I have gone from a list of about thirty boats [mainly to get a sense of the market], to a list of a dozen. Two months ago, when I was ready to actually look at boats, there were only two that I could contemplate viewing, one was £36K and quirky, and the other £45K but conventional.

I could not use your spreadsheet to assist in pricing, and anyway price is not the main criteria. it is just one variable

The sale of my flat has not happened, I still have a list of about a dozen possibles, I can't really understand why a spreadsheet would be of much value as we are comparing apples and pears, a three year old child can tell an apple from a pear in an instant. 

Yes!  exactly.  The OP is trying to go about things in a logical way, looking at the stats and ranking boats as if it could ever be a sensible decision. 

 

But -

 

Buying a boat is not a sensible thing to do.  If you want to be sensible, buy a house, or a van or something.  With a boat, you go and see one and fall hopelessly in love with it.  You immediately start picturing all the adventures you could have.  Then, and only then, do you look for good reasons not to buy it.  If you don't find enough reasons, you buy it.  Simple.

2 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

How much was it new ? & its barely broken in as a boat..

 

[70liveaboard]

I'll leave this here and ask.. Why is this special.. (as an investment)..

 

 

 

Just to add.. Its a lovely boat, nearing 30yrs old now., Sold recently and I'm not going to put the price. But say this sold for more than it was bought for new.. Original everything, inc engine IIRC.

Edited August 18, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[roland elsdon]

29 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

How much was it new ? & its barely broken in as a boat..

 

And yes, there is someone out there to buy every boat, not saying there isn't. But your still implying Hudson is better. Why is Hudson better.. ?

It passed us a couple of days ago, very smiling owner. Hope he got a good discount as the phrase catastrophic and depreciation fall to mind

[70liveaboard]

Side note, just saw Elton Moss there at the top of the list. They use Polish shells, don't they ?

 

I had some dealings with Polish shell builders back in the early-mid naughties.. Very interesting stuff. Not for here though.

1 minute ago, roland elsdon said:

It passed us a couple of days ago, very smiling owner. Hope he got a good discount as the phrase catastrophic and depreciation fall to mind

The depreciation will probably not even register, if he has the money to pay so far over the top now, it really won't bother him/her.

But it does show, not in a good way, how things get skewed.

Hudson built a good boat, but.. no.. I'll leave it there..

[doratheexplorer]

14 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

I'll leave this here and ask.. Why is this special.. (as an investment)..

 

 

 

Just to add.. Its a lovely boat, nearing 30yrs old now., Sold recently and I'm not going to put the price. But say this sold for more than it was bought for new.. Original everything, inc engine IIRC.

How many times do I have to explain this????  MY POINT WAS THAT THE LIST WAS WRONG/MADE NO SENSE.  You are making a completely different point about boat depreciation, a subject I have no idea or interest in whatsoever, although it might be a consideration for Ivan, I wouldn't know.

[alan_fincher]

7 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Side note, just saw Elton Moss there at the top of the list. They use Polish shells, don't they ?

 

I had some dealings with Polish shell builders back in the early-mid naughties.. Very interesting stuff. Not for here though.

 

So why  bother to even mention it?

Fairly pointless, it seems to me, if nobody else can be party to your little "secrets".

[roland elsdon]

I saw the original appalling duck advert earlier in the year. It went to great lengths to explain the value. Florid. 

However I hope the new owner gets enjoyment out of it, its just not my kind of thing

[70liveaboard]

1 minute ago, roland elsdon said:

I saw the original appalling duck advert earlier in the year. It went to great lengths to explain the value. Florid. 

However I hope the new owner gets enjoyment out of it, its just not my kind of thing

Yep, I hope they have lots of fun with it. Plenty of bragging rights too, not because of the builder, but the cost he paid. But only to others in his circles, I dare say.

8 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

How many times do I have to explain this????  MY POINT WAS THAT THE LIST WAS WRONG/MADE NO SENSE.  You are making a completely different point about boat depreciation, a subject I have no idea or interest in whatsoever, although it might be a consideration for Ivan, I wouldn't know.

First list didn't make any sense to you, or indeed me.

Second list you thought was right (not for me, sorry). But why ?

What does it prove.

 

The OP's need shoe's a car, well, bus/train would do. Then get out and look at boats..... That much we agree on, or even understand each other on.. Yes ?

[jetzi]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

I still think he would have been better off going to view some boats rather than diddling around on a computer.

These are not mutually exclusive. It's possible to do both, as I am proving.

 

29 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Maybe I am out of order, but I came on here with little idea of what I wanted/needed/could afford.

In the last twelve months I have gone from a list of about thirty boats [mainly to get a sense of the market], to a list of a dozen. Two months ago, when I was ready to actually look at boats, there were only two that I could contemplate viewing, one was £36K and quirky, and the other £45K but conventional.

I could not use your spreadsheet to assist in pricing, and anyway price is not the main criteria. it is just one variable 

The sale of my flat has not happened, I still maintain a list of about a dozen possibles. I can't really understand why such a detailed spreadsheet would be of much value as you are comparing apples and pears, a three year old child can tell an apple from a pear in an instant.  

PS I don't often respond to these posts as a whole lot of harpies will descend on me from above with unwanted and unhelpful comments 

The value is to get a feel for how much boats should cost. The value is that in my inexperience, I don't buy a boat that I can't resell without losing 15 grand. The value is that when we do find the boat of our dreams, we can make an educated offer that will be fair to buyer and seller, and not a number plucked out of the air. You seem to be looking for something quite a lot more specific than we are, we have viewed 3 boats so far that were suitable for our needs, we made an offer on one. But we're taking it slow, and we want to look at many, many boats before we settle.

 

27 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Buying a boat is not a sensible thing to do.  If you want to be sensible, buy a house, or a van or something.  With a boat, you go and see one and fall hopelessly in love with it.  You immediately start picturing all the adventures you could have.  Then, and only then, do you look for good reasons not to buy it.  If you don't find enough reasons, you buy it.  Simple.

As I've said before this mystical "boat will find you" approach is probably precisely the reason the narrowboat market is so wacky and so many people say that boats are money pits. Others might have the resources to spend five figures with your heart and not your head, but not all of us are so blessed. Again, there is no reason we can't buy a boat that we love, AND that will be easy to resell if we fall out of love in a year or two.

Not to belittle your reasons, of course. Each to his own.

See it from my point of view. On the one hand, I have people telling me go with your gut, buy the boat you fall in love with, on the other I have people (sometimes the same people) telling me that the boat I posted - that we loved - would be a terrible purchase. With such mixed messages, in a field that I know nothing about, do you blame me for exercising a little caution here?

[doratheexplorer]

24 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Yep, I hope they have lots of fun with it. Plenty of bragging rights too, not because of the builder, but the cost he paid. But only to others in his circles, I dare say.

First list didn't make any sense to you, or indeed me.

Second list you thought was right (not for me, sorry). But why ?

What does it prove.

 

The OP's need shoe's a car, well, bus/train would do. Then get out and look at boats..... That much we agree on, or even understand each other on.. Yes ?

It doesn't prove anything as has been widely pointed out.

17 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

These are not mutually exclusive. It's possible to do both, as I am proving.

 

The value is to get a feel for how much boats should cost. The value is that in my inexperience, I don't buy a boat that I can't resell without losing 15 grand. The value is that when we do find the boat of our dreams, we can make an educated offer that will be fair to buyer and seller, and not a number plucked out of the air. You seem to be looking for something quite a lot more specific than we are, we have viewed 3 boats so far that were suitable for our needs, we made an offer on one. But we're taking it slow, and we want to look at many, many boats before we settle.

 

As I've said before this mystical "boat will find you" approach is probably precisely the reason the narrowboat market is so wacky and so many people say that boats are money pits. Others might have the resources to spend five figures with your heart and not your head, but not all of us are so blessed. Again, there is no reason we can't buy a boat that we love, AND that will be easy to resell if we fall out of love in a year or two.

Not to belittle your reasons, of course. Each to his own.

See it from my point of view. On the one hand, I have people telling me go with your gut, buy the boat you fall in love with, on the other I have people (sometimes the same people) telling me that the boat I posted - that we loved - would be a terrible purchase. With such mixed messages, in a field that I know nothing about, do you blame me for exercising a little caution here?

You're not going to like this but if financial prudence is a priority, why are you buying buying a boat?  They are all money pits.

[70liveaboard]

4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It doesn't prove anything as has been widely pointed out.

You're not going to like this but if financial prudence is a priority, why are you buying buying a boat?  They are all money pits.

O.k. not sure why one made sense and the other didn't though, when neither seemed to make sense, well to me anyway..

 

But that said. Enjoy your weekend, well what's left of it.

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You're not going to like this but if financial prudence is a priority, why are you buying buying a boat?  They are all money pits.

I find living on a boat significantly cheaper than living in a house. B

[LadyG]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I find living on a boat significantly cheaper than living in a house. B

How do you do that? 

I live in a house and it costs me £1000 pa in council tax, a few hundred in maintenance, where am I going to cut costs to live on a boat of 50ft?

Everyone reckons a NB costs about £5K pa, seems a huge difference,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Edited August 18, 2018 by LadyG

[70liveaboard]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

how do you do that? 

I live in a house and it costs me £1000 pa in council tax, a few hundred in maintenance, where am I going to cut costs to live on a boat of 50ft?

Partly where you moor it. The licence is there to see.

The the rest is personal usage really. Can't see how anyone can put an average on that across user's.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I find living on a boat significantly cheaper than living in a house. B

 

Which house is that then? 

 

[LadyG]

Just now, 70liveaboard said:

Partly where you moor it. The licence is there to see.

The the rest is personal usage really. Can't see how anyone can put an average on that across user's.

I don't intend to moor it, but the £5K seems to come from those who keep a spreadsheet.  I assume they don't include personal costs.