Rank these boat builders!

[jetzi]

Thanks for the recommendation of Llanarrow, yes she 4th is on our list of boats to view - her interior doesn't look that great in the pictures, and she was last blacked 5 years ago which suggested to me that she hasn't been as well maintained as some of the other boats we've seen. Also Mike Heywood has a middling vote above. But you are dead right at 30 grand she sounds like a great deal, and certainly better than some boats we've seen at 40 grand. We'll bump up her priority thanks to your recommendations!

Other boats we're unsure of:

 

Good looking but by Alvechurch which isn't highly rated - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=563642
CTS built, very nice but looks like she might have a wooden roof? - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=568722

Very cheap and built in 2005! but by "floating homes", who didn't place in the poll: - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=558960

[alan_fincher]

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

CTS built, very nice but looks like she might have a wooden roof? - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=568722

Yes,

 

This looks like it is probably a wooden top - the build date is after all 1969, when it was not unusual.

 

Please note she can't be both a 1969 Dennis Coper build and "aformer working boat", so the advert is not telling the whole story.  I think it is the latter claim that would prove to be wrong, but the pictures don't show the hull well enough to judge what it is.

 

The heavy internal hardwood beams would not be necessary with a steel top.

There's something stuck to one of them, which I suspect is more than unremoved masking tape.

It also suffers the solid bulkhead effect, again with no obvious second escape route.

[alan_fincher]

14 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Very cheap and built in 2005! but by "floating homes", who didn't place in the poll: - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=558960

Scary that they think this is a good picture to include in the advert!

 

[Robbo]

6 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Scary that they think this is a good picture to include in the advert!

 

Who in earth would put a header tank in the room full of electronics!

[Athy]

20 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

:

 

Good looking but by Alvechurch which isn't highly rated - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=563642

Alvechurch were a well-known hire company (still trading but now called ABC). I am not sure they built their own boats . So this, though it doesn't particularly look like one, may be an ex-hire boat. The fact that it has two bogs supports this possibility.

[alan_fincher]

14 hours ago, Tonka said:

Here is a70ft in you price range http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=575501 and the builder is on the preferred side as it is a Mike Heywood. Have you looked at it

Don't know what to make of that one.

As MTB says, Great Haywood Boat Sales are not famous for bargains, so I feel there must be reason that the boat is no more expensive.

 

That said it is 31 years old, so the usual issues around surveys being necessary to secure comprehensive insurance will apply.

As I think has been pointed out, not blacked in 5 years - not ideal, particularly if it has lived on the end of that land-line.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Athy said:

Alvechurch were a well-known hire company (still trading but now called ABC). I am not sure they built their own boats . So this, though it doesn't particularly look like one, may be an ex-hire boat. The fact that it has two bogs supports this possibility.

I've never seen that "humped" window style on any hire boat.  That said, the interior does look a bit hire boat.

Edited July 26, 2018 by alan_fincher

[jetzi]

 

14 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

25 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

CTS built, very nice but looks like she might have a wooden roof? - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=568722

Yes,

 

This looks like it is probably a wooden top - the build date is after all 1969, when it was not unusual. 

 

Please note she can't be both a 1969 Dennis Coper build and "aformer working boat", so the advert is not telling the whole story.  I think it is the latter claim that would prove to be wrong, but the pictures don't show the hull well enough to judge what it is.

 

The heavy internal hardwood beams would not be necessary with a steel top.

There's something stuck to one of them, which I suspect is more than unremoved masking tape.

It also suffers the solid bulkhead effect, again with no obvious second escape route.

Thanks for confirming that, I think her age, the wooden roof and the lack of escape route kind of together make a dealbreaker.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

26 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

:

 

Good looking but by Alvechurch which isn't highly rated - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=563642

Alvechurch were a well-known hire company (still trading but now called ABC). I am not sure they built their own boats . So this, though it doesn't particularly look like one, may be an ex-hire boat. The fact that it has two bogs supports this possibility.

There are two boats by Alvechurch on the market, both of them are very neat. Would you say that being an ex-hire boat is a bad thing? I shouldn't have thought it was like buying an ex-hire car - not as many moving parts to take wear...

 

 

2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

As MTB says, Great Haywood Boat Sales are not famous for bargains, so I feel there must be reason that the boat is no more expensive.

 

That said it is 31 years old, so the usual issues around surveys being necessary to secure comprehensive insurance will apply.

 

We'll check it out and look for red flags, thanks so much. Great Haywood has other boats we like as well, so it's a good destination - only they are being quite difficult about proving finance before they will show us any boats. Naturally I don't want to take the loan before I have chosen a boat, so I'm going to have to get on their case a bit.

 

Yeah, almost all the boats we are looking at are more than 20 years old, so a survey will be required i think regardless. Do you know how old a survey can be used for insurance purposes? Is it something you have to do every X years?

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

 

I've never seen that "humped" window style on any hire boat.  That said, the interior does look a bit hire boat.

Nor have I - that's why I thought it didn't look like an ex-hire boat. It could of course have been refenestrated after being sold into private ownership.

I have a vague memory that John Pinder built Alvechurch's boats, or some of them. I have never knowingly heard of a private boat built by Alvechurch - but then Teddesley used to build their own boats but no longer do, so it's a possibility.

[alan_fincher]

29 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Thanks for the recommendation of Llanarrow, yes she 4th is on our list of boats to view - her interior doesn't look that great in the pictures, and she was last blacked 5 years ago which suggested to me that she hasn't been as well maintained as some of the other boats we've seen. Also Mike Heywood has a middling vote above. But you are dead right at 30 grand she sounds like a great deal, and certainly better than some boats we've seen at 40 grand. We'll bump up her priority thanks to your recommendations!

Other boats we're unsure of:

 

Good looking but by Alvechurch which isn't highly rated - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=563642
CTS built, very nice but looks like she might have a wooden roof? - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=568722

Very cheap and built in 2005! but by "floating homes", who didn't place in the poll: - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=558960

I think you are getting too hung up on your poll.

As it didn't allow anything more than a tick in the box alongside any builder, there was an implied cut off point that something was either "a good build", or that it was not - no shades of grey between the two.

I didn't vote, because I didn't think I could have sensibly arbitrarily made the distinction for many mid range builders.  If I had have done, I would probably have ticked Mike Heywood, who actually built very good boats, (apart from some known potential problem areas), - he also built as Evans and Son, by the way -  but that doesn't make his boats the quality of (say) a Les Allen.

Whilst builder is important, if you only have around £30K to spend on a full length baot, I'd certainly not get hung up on the fact that not enough CWDFers have put a tick in the box for a certain make.

 

[alan_fincher]

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 Do you know how old a survey can be used for insurance purposes? Is it something you have to do every X years?

I don't think there is any hard and fast rule.

You probably are not old enough to qualify for Saga insurance, but I know they have suggested that once you have ahd one survey, they don't require regular ones thereafter.  I think some have suggested other providers say the same, only to have that contradicted by somebody else's experience.

Both our boats are 1936, so need a specialist insurer - we can't just go to anybody in the market.  I believe the required interval is either 6 or 7 years.  The last time it came up, we ended up about £7,000 poorer!

[jetzi]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I think you are getting too hung up on your poll.

As it didn't allow anything more than a tick in the box alongside any builder, there was an implied cut off point that something was either "a good build", or that it was not - no shades of grey between the two.

I didn't vote, because I didn't think I could have sensibly arbitrarily made the distinction for many mid range builders.  If I had have done, I would probably have ticked Mike Heywood, who actually built very good boats, (apart from some known potential problem areas), - he also built as Evans and Son, by the way -  but that doesn't make his boats the quality of (say) a Les Allen.

Whilst builder is important, if you only have around £30K to spend on a full length baot, I'd certainly not get hung up on the fact that not enough CWDFers have put a tick in the box for a certain make.

It's just one column in a big spreadsheet of other facts. I realise it's quite limited. The "shades of grey" sort of emerge from the average votes of people.  My methods may be pedantic but the alternative is buying a boat without any data at all and it's too much money to not have some level of caution. It's helpful to me to see Les Allen, G & J Reeves, CTS or Colecraft on an ad and think, "Ooh, that's a decent builder" which I couldn't have done before this thread. We won't be buying her on the strength of that alone though, don't worry!
 

 

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

they have suggested that once you have ahd one survey, they don't require regular ones thereafter

So the important thing is that the survey was done in your name? For example, if we were to buy a boat that had a survey from 2 years ago, that wouldn't qualify us for insurance?

Since we need a survey for insurance anyway, it makes the most sense to do it pre-purchase.

[alan_fincher]

8 minutes ago, Athy said:

 I have never knowingly heard of a private boat built by Alvechurch - but then Teddesley used to build their own boats but no longer do, so it's a possibility.

Many hire companies have over the years built their own boats, sometimes with very distinctive syles that can't be mistaken for anything else.

The former "Weed boats" from Weedon (originally Concoform Marine) are a classic example.

 

Rather wonderfully a new operator is slowly re-acquiring the former hire boats back out of private ownership, and now once again operating several as hire boats.  Last time I spoke to them, I think they had 3 operational.

 

https://www.grandunionnarrowboats.co.uk/

 

Wyvern Shipping also built their own shells for a while, but later ones were again built by third parties, I believe.
 

 

 

[Athy]

That's a heart-warming story: Hire a preserved hireboat!

Our very first hire boat in Britain was a Wyvern and I recall their distinctive features, notably the two boxes on the rear deck, one of which containded the gas bottles and the other one....er, didn't. They also, of course, served as seats. I have sometimes wondered why more builders didn't adopt that idea.

Fox's definitely build their own hire boats from start to finish, but i'm not sue if anyone else does nowadays.

[alan_fincher]

20 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

It's just one column in a big spreadsheet of other facts. I realise it's quite limited. The "shades of grey" sort of emerge from the average votes of people.  My methods may be pedantic but the alternative is buying a boat without any data at all and it's too much money to not have some level of caution. It's helpful to me to see Les Allen, G & J Reeves, CTS or Colecraft on an ad and think, "Ooh, that's a decent builder" which I couldn't have done before this thread. We won't be buying her on the strength of that alone though, don't worry!
 

 

So the important thing is that the survey was done in your name? For example, if we were to buy a boat that had a survey from 2 years ago, that wouldn't qualify us for insurance?

Since we need a survey for insurance anyway, it makes the most sense to do it pre-purchase.

Sorry.

I typed a very long response, but my browser has decided to ditch the lot.

No time to try again now, I'm afraid.  May try later, but can't promise.

[pete harrison]

56 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Yes,

 

This looks like it is probably a wooden top - the build date is after all 1969, when it was not unusual.

 

Please note she can't be both a 1969 Dennis Coper build and "aformer working boat", so the advert is not telling the whole story.  I think it is the latter claim that would prove to be wrong, but the pictures don't show the hull well enough to judge what it is.

Depending on your interpretation of 'a former working boat' oh yes she can as VICTORIA is a former hotel boat that once operated as a pair with the butty ALBERT, and was very possibly the first purpose built hotel boat pair.

 

Like you I would usually interpret 'a former working boat' to be a boat that carried cargo 

[pete harrison]

This boat was mentioned earlier in this thread:

 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=575387

 

and if you are looking at VICTORIA @ £42000 then MALTA @ £45000 represents much better value to me 

[WotEver]

32 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Since we need a survey for insurance anyway, it makes the most sense to do it pre-purchase.

Be sure to inform the surveyor that you need not only a pre-purchase survey (which will focus on areas requiring attention) but also a survey for Insurance (which will focus on the fact that it’s unlikely to sink over the next x years). 

[Athy]

9 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

This boat was mentioned earlier in this thread:

 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=575387

 

and if you are looking at VICTORIA @ £42000 then MALTA @ £45000 represents much better value to me 

Yes, a lot of boat for the money, looks smart (if a little pallid) inside, has proper bath and proper engine.

Is that Mike Askin's 'Victoria' which is up for sale?

[Tonka]

Alvechurch or ABC as it is known now do build boats for private individuals . My ex neighbour had one built for him. It has the energy efficient bow.

[Ray T]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

Yes, a lot of boat for the money, looks smart (if a little pallid) inside, has proper bath and proper engine.

Is that Mike Askin's 'Victoria' which is up for sale?

No. Mike's boat is a Royalty class built by Yarwoods.

https://hnbc.org.uk/boats/victoria

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Ray T

[Athy]

8 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Alvechurch or ABC as it is known now do build boats for private individuals . My ex neighbour had one built for him. It has the energy efficient bow.

Thanks for the information.

[pete harrison]

11 minutes ago, Ray T said:

No. Mike's boat is a Royalty class built by Yarwoods.

https://hnbc.org.uk/boats/victoria

But both the C.T.S. hotel boat VICTORIA and the Royalty motor VICTORIA are named after the same lady - as were countless other boats 

[Ray T]

Just now, pete harrison said:

But both the C.T.S. hotel boat VICTORIA and the Royalty motor VICTORIA are named after the same lady - as were countless other boats 

Athy was asking if it is Mike's boat for sale in the advert.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Ray T

[pete harrison]

2 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Athy was asking if it is Mike's boat for sale in the advert.

I know, and you answered that quite sufficiently with the word 'No' - and I deliberately left that quote in my response 

[David Schweizer]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Alvechurch or ABC as it is known now do build boats for private individuals . My ex neighbour had one built for him. It has the energy efficient bow.

Alvechurch used to build boats at their Hilperton base in Wiltshire, having taken over the dock formerly owned by Wessex Boats. However they ceased building when the Financial Support Grant conditions for building the dock expired. I do not know whether they built any private boats there.

Edited July 26, 2018 by David Schweizer