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Seeing as how the original question has been answered (civilly, too) several times, and as it appears thas it isn't the answer the OP wanted he's introduced a discussion of racism into the thread, can I respectfully suggest the whole damn thing gets moved to the politics section, where the lefties, righties, Brexiteers and racists can all fight it out happily and the rest of us can ignore this nonsense? PS Trying to argue that every traveller is a Traveller is like saying every European is French.

I think this is good advice. The OP certainly does not know what he wants .....given that a week ago he was looking at a widebeam and now a narrowbeam. That is quite a change of direction. For someone who doesnt have the knowledge of what is important in a canal boat, I think it is pointless getting a new one. Not that many on here will have bought a new boat recently ...but we have. We got ours end of June. The buying excercise was interesting. We went to a builder that does at least 10 a year. We seemed to be almost unique in knowing what we wanted ....after first buying a £40-50K boat 3 years ago. Obviously most of their customors have little knowledge of canal boats. We went to New and Used who sell Collingwood and Aqualine. They are chalk and cheese. Our Aqualine had 6 things on the snagging list of which most have been sorted but one important thing left. They will do that otherwise they could get a lot of bad press. There was a huge difference in quality between the Collinwood and Aqualine (and price) and I would hate to imagine what the snagging list was on the Collingwood. I guess they can get away with a long snagging list to someone new to the canals. Someone new to the canals would certainly waste money on the 'extras' which the individual has to choose. Without experience you would end up with choices that just dont work for the individual. An example on ours was the pump out tank. The one supplied as normal is just too small for a full time couple living aboard in a covid environment. I had to ask if they did a bigger one (which they did) and that was then an extra. It wasnt listed on the the 'extras'. Had I not known the sizes and how quickly you fill them, then we would have been pumping out every week! This is the 2nd new boat we have bought. The previous one was a sailing yacht (expensive) but we also had years experience owning a 2nd hand one before so know what we were ordering. That had about 20 things on the snagging list so I knew what to specify when buying this time. I think it is impossible for someone new to all of this to buy a narrowboat (or fat boat) and get what they a) want and b) really need without owning a used boat first. There are so many things that the buyer will not know about to make a decision. We did not get a survey done on ours on delivery as anything major should be picked up by the seller - hence you need to choose a company that is not likely to go under....do you financial due dilligence properly! We chose Aqualine as they could deliver a boat in 14 weeks (ordered end Feb, delivered 20th June)....as all they build these day is fat boats and they had a slot in the factory to put a narrow boat between the fat ones! That minimised the risk of cash being tied up. I am experienced enough to spot all the 'non' major items - which we did in the first few days - and the werent many of them. Advice to the OP...buy a used boat first and dont assume you know what you want until you see (in the flesh) a number of boats. Your views of what you want will change.......as shown by your decision not to go with a fat boat.

Obviously you should do what feels right for you both, and I can certainly see the appeal.of a brand new shiny boat. However, as a fellow newbie I would put myself firmly in the second-hand camp, especially as this will be your first ever narrowboat. The advice we were given was to treat your first boat as a learning experience; a way to discover whether you actually enjoy narrowboating, how to maintain and steer a boat, what sort of layout works for you, what equipment you are comfortable with (loos, inverters, solar/travel packs etc) and so on. Plenty of people are delighted with their brand new boats I'm sure, and without people buying new boats we wouldn't have a healthy stock of used boats to choose from! Just seems to me a heck of a lot of money to commit if you are not absolutely sure what you want. You are giving it all careful consideration which is the best thing you could do.

Ain’t that the truth? Last night I posted the sad news of the death of a valuable member of the boating community. I did so because CWDF did not appear to have this information but Thunderboat did. It was suggested there that someone should put a post up so that those that wished to on this site could also post their condolences, should they wish to. Well Muggins here offered to do so and I added a link to the Thunderboat thread as there are some very fitting tributes there which, in my opinion were worth reading. That’s when it all went to hell in a handcart. We can squabble all we like but the bottom line is that this animosity between them and us serves no purpose other than to show us all at our worst. So please can I make a suggestion? Stop it! Just stop it!

Look at this positively: If you fit through, all will be well; if you don't, then at least your chimney will no longer be stuck! ?

The last word of that quote is highly relevant. The government’s own ruling states that to be a Bargee Traveller they must be “engaged in a trade or business of such a nature that requires them to travel from place to place.” Just joining the NBTA, calling yourself a Bargee Traveller and then sitting on a mooring does not qualify you for that status. And that’s what was being referred to earlier in the thread. Nothing racist, no ethnic slurs, simply an observation about a lifestyle incompatible with the law.

No, I dont think so. Nigel went to great lengths to study and learn legalese in order to challenge unfair and illegal practice by BW, their legal arm, and then CRT. He did this to help others and himself protect their abodes and moorings at first, and then to assist others against the might and wealth of the waterways, developers and Shoosmiths where they were trying to circumvent or ignore law or historic navigation rights. He wouldn't defend cases willy nilly, only where his knowledge of the law and history showed him that there was fault. He also spent considerable time challenging the Middle Level Commisioners to make sure that the new legislation was fair and correct within their control. A true scholar, gent and knight for the trodden on. RIP Nigel.

Apparently, respectful links were made to Thunderboats posts re Nigel Moore's passing. Nigel frequented both sites in his usual affable manner. I find it appalling that the posts were deleted, Why? What's wrong with the mod or mods here. I hope this isn't swept into the bin under the catch all "mods must not be questioned". The posts were in no way derogatory, they were not fuel for rivalry and spats. Someone needs to get a grip.

Off topic, but an old boss of mine lost his cool in a senior management meeting once, and suggested that one of his colleagues was either being disingenuous or mendacious. He said he thought he only got away with it because nobody else in the room was quite sure what either of the words meant.

1999, and the lock at Bleiswyjk, close to Rotterdam. This type of lock, similar to those found on early waterways in Essex and Sussex, were built in the 18th century. The framing was necessary because they were built on reclaimed land or former river bed, and so could not have a solid foundation. the wooden framing allowed them to settle whilst the gates could still be operated.

It wouldn’t be much of a discussion forum without questions. I was enquiring as to why folks find the OPs proposals so objectionable that they get very personal, particularly as a number of them will not be encountering him on the water. Boater vs boater (ex and potential included) conflict is not good.

I met Nigel a couple of times and took him on a boat ride on the tidal Thames a couple of years ago where he hadn't been for years despite living in Brentford. He had his lady with him who is most pleasant. His passing is a serious blow to anyone wanting to challenge unfair or illegal practice by CRT because he was always happy to share his immense knowledge of the law around waterways and help people who deserved help. Rest in peace Nigel.

I thought that you had a perfectly adequate explanation of what happened from Magpie Patrick, and what will happen next. There is no suggestion of ongoing animosity, just a cock-up in a probably old piece of code. There is nothing to stop except continued discussion of this non-squabble.

Virtual greenie. Now can we all just get on with the rest of the Forum and let them sort it out as soon as they can? I'm sure MP will come back and tell us when that happens.

The OP several times uses the term Bargee Travellers and talks of their ethnicity, but I wonder how many people who can legitimately be referred to as Travellers (with a capital T) actually live on boats in reality. I suspect it is an extremely small number. Maybe if NBTA members continue their lifestyle for a few generations and with their children always only inter-marrying, then perhaps the word will become applicable. At the moment it is merely self-assigned, and were I a Traveller I'd probably not want to have much to do with them. Tam

Some may find the Governments definition of 'Traveller' of interest. The context here is regarding school children of 'Travellers' and the legal requirement for schools to provide teaching for any traveller children as they pass thru the catchment area. NOTE : Part B This advice gives information for parents and carers of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller children and those who work with them in schools and local authorities. It is important for schools and local authorities to understand the culture of children and young people from Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities as this reduces the risk of underachievement or exclusion of the pupil. The best opportunities are found when parents/carers, schools and local authorities understand each other and plan and work together in the interest of the child. The advice explains what the law says and describes some good ideas about school attendance for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller pupils. The term ‘Gypsy, Roma and Traveller families’ means: • a) i. Gypsies inc. Romanies, Romanichals, Welsh Gypsies/Kaale, Scottish Gypsies/Travellers; ii. Irish Travellers, Minceir; iii. Roma from Eastern and Central Europe; iv. Showmen (Fairground people); v. Circus people; vi. Boat Travellers/Bargees; vii. New Travellers or New Age Travellers; and • b) the parent/carer is engaged in a trade or business of such a nature that requires them to travel from place to place. This advice on school attendance only applies to families who meet the criteria at both a) and b) above. In this advice the term ‘travelling’ means travelling as part of the parents’/carers’ trade or business. It does not mean travelling as part of a holiday or extended holiday. Boaters / Bargees are only travellers if their work requires them to travel around the country - it does not include 'workers in the city' or on the K&A; who choose to live on a boat because it is cheap, and, because they happen to be a member of a 'club' with 'Traveller' in its name does not make them 'travellers'. It is oft quoted that NBTA stands for "No Boats Travel Anywhere"

A real loss to the canals. Very sad news. We need more like him.

Presumably nothing. I have no idea who the OP is. Presumably you'll need evidence of that too before you'll be satisfied.

Stop it I'm blushing now. Anyway it's not really that massive, quite pointy though. It's all about technique.

As I said on the other side,if Nigel said something-I'd believe him to be correct.He came across as a gent who cared passionately about the waterways & people being treated fairly.A real loss.

Ok, if you are thinking of a 55ft new boat for £89K, it doesnt sound like it is anywhere near a top of the range boat. Take yourself down to Hanbury wharf (Droitwich - 30 mins south of Birmingham) and look at a new Collingwood £85K and a new Aqualine £120K (both prices before addition of extras .....which you will need). There is a huge difference in quality. If you want a quality new boat I dont think you will find a one for under £120K with all the extras. Extras are likely to put on £20-30k in cost but you should be able to negotiate. "oh, you want a 3KVA combi box....that will be another £1500"......"Oh, and you want a hospital silencer, that will be another £400", etc Try and look at more £40-50K boats before you get sucked into the 'new build'. You should get a quality 20 year old boat for that budget. I would prefer a quality £40-50K old boat to a brand new collingwood.

Dreadful news. A true gentleman as others have said, a great champion of both the underdog and the truth. Will be hugely missed by us all, even by those who won't know why they are missing him.

Thanks for your reply. The issue is that someone has programmed the attitude problem into the software.

My apologies to both of you .. I got a little angry and frustrated last night .. this has all been a bit stressful and I’m struggling to find a proper answer to my original question here or in the RCD manual .. and then people started to make fun a bit and I just wasn’t in the mood for it .. again I am very sorry for being so sensitive about it ❤️❤️?

On this day in 2017 Ilkeston IWA Festival of Water. An Earlier Ford. 100E Anglia. YRA481 The card in the window gave this one's history, "Ford Anglia, 100E, 2 Door Saloon, purchased on the 19th July 1955 from the Premier Garage, Market Street, Ilkeston, Derbyshire. The car is completely original with 10 HP side valve engine and 3 speed gearbox and no modifications" These were branded as Anglias until 1959 when the new (backwards backwindow) shape 105E took over the name. Many entertaining hours holding spanners for my father's tinkering under the bonnet of (a black) one-of-these 312BHK. Nostalgia ...

On what do you base your assertion that the catch-all word ‘Traveller’ implies a certain ethnicity? I ask the question because it doesn’t. A traveller may be a Romany Gypsy, or an Irish Traveller, or they may be any person who holds New Age values, (of whatever ethnicity that person happened to originally be). Regardless of their background, a Traveller is so-labelled due to their itinerant or nomadic lifestyle. A ‘Traveller’ who doesn’t travel has no real right to call himself or herself such, regardless of their heritage.

Always liked boats, first boating holiday Sept 1975. with a pal on his 16ft Dolphin. Marlow to Newbridge (Upper Thames) and back- see pic, muscle bound hero mid left! Spent various holidays on that boat and a 21ft Norman he bought. 1988 had some money left over from a divorce (yep, unusual situation I know) so bought Keb a 30ft nb. after making sure current partner liked boating. We ran Keb for 16 years and sold her and bought Albion Mills a 48ft boat with a Gardner engine (something I have always wanted). Always been based at Cowroast. always kept a boating logbook.

Never been on a narrowboat, hardly knew canals existed, I was in a bit of a sticky housing situation and was desperate to find somewhere I wanted to live and could afford. I was sat in a car park having my snap on a work day and out of the blue came the thought narrowboat, drove to a book shop bought every narrowboat magazine I could, 6 months later I was stood on the back of my boat thinking "WTF" and smiling 15yrs later still on the same boat still thinking WTF and smiling

To be honest if someone can't afford a mooring and are staying in one place then they shouldn't be on a boat. We all have to comply with the very few very relaxed easy rules, I have managed full time for over 30 years. I can't afford a bugatti vayron so I don't have one. Having children has been happening since day one but today is sometimes used as some sort of specialist excuse to flout the rules. No I am not having a go but as Matty says at present we are faced with too many new liveaboards flouting too many rules rather than playing the game and staying under the radar, this in the fullness of time will ruin many peoples way of life as further rules will be weeded in. ?

Bagpipes (noun) - I understand the inventor of the bagpipes was inspired when he saw a man carrying an indignant, asthmatic pig under his arm. Unfortunately, the man-made object never equalled the purity of sound achieved by the pig. -Alfred Hitchcock