Floods

[Murflynn]

 

I don't feel at all sorry when their all-in-it-together austerity ends up costing far more than it would have cost to do the job properly in the first place.

 

I'm not saying all would have been well for everyone, but does anyone seriously doubt that spending the £58m on the defences in Leeds (which was cut) would have cost more than the additional damage from not doing them?

 

As for blaming local authorities for building in the wrong places, that's no better than vicious and wilful blame-shifting away from the real cause - a woeful lack of investment in infrastructure. Camoron and Osborne should start investing for us all instead of flapping their gobs and letting lies out.

what tosh.

 

infrastructure will not prevent flooding in exceptional events.

 

I spent years trying to design a flood defence scheme in Oman, where a (usually dry) wadi exited from a gap in the mountains and ran across a gravel fan (created by major historical events) and into the sea. The cost of protecting some recently built houses constructed on the fan, against the advice of the water resources group, from a 100 year event was prohibitive, and if executed it would just have put other properties at risk. In the event we built new houses and allocated them to the potential flood victims. Many of them refused to move - it was a tragedy when the inevitable happened.

[Guest]

what tosh.

 

infrastructure will not prevent flooding in exceptional events.

 

I spent years trying to design a flood defence scheme in Oman, where a (usually dry) wadi exited from a gap in the mountains and ran across a gravel fan (created by major historical events) and into the sea. The cost of protecting some recently built houses constructed on the fan, against the advice of the water resources group, from a 100 year event was prohibitive, and if executed it would just have put other properties at risk. In the event we built new houses and allocated them to the potential flood victims. Many of them refused to move - it was a tragedy when the inevitable happened.

Sorry but it is not necessarily tosh. Infrastructure may not prevent flooding completely, but might lessen it? As I have mentioned already, there is a plan in place to disable two edit: actually 7 now large pumping stations close to where I live; in our area we have just been badly flooded this week. I have yet to hear of any intention to stop this ridiculous action, and the reason for stopping these pumping stations is to save money; nothing more, nothing less. Okay we still flooded to some extent with the pumps running I hear you cry, but what might have happened if they had been stopped a year sooner, and the water table was that much higher to begin with? Why were they initially built at great expense if suddenly they can be dispensed with? Were they built for a bit of fun one afternoon? What could possibly go wrong? Perhaps some people design and build flood defenses better than others?

Edited December 28, 2015 by Guest

[Phil Ambrose]

Nail hit on head!

 

The trouble with lengthsmen opening run off paddles is that their view of the problem is constrained.

 

They may look to manage THEIR levels, by consigning excess water downstream to become somebody else's problem.

 

What is needed is central control, and preparatory actions before the levels rise.

 

If you know that there will be heavy rain in 48 hours, that is the time to open some sluices. Lower the levels a bit, provide a bit of space in the reservoirs.

This is what happens in the Fens, when heavy rain is forecast Denver open the sluices and drop the level to the extent that some of us sit on the bottom, a bit inconvenient but it does mean Cambridge does avoid being flooded.

Phil

[tidal]

I want to see what happens in Selby
Farming land on both sides of the river just above the town has not had the defence heights increased and this functions much the same as the traditional flood plain it used to be.

If Selby stays reasonably dry for the next few days then it may prove the worth of such schemes on major rivers.

 

Where I live, there has been a centuries old flooding problem in the local small town.
Quite a few years ago now they built a flood relief dam which allows only a certain amount of water through and allows the rest to flood the valley above (pasture) and gradually release the water down the river to stop sudden surges. It's only small river but it works even in these massive events. AND it clearly reduces the pressure on the bigger river it feeds into.

 

These sort of "old-fashioned" innovations are starting to appear all over the country and may be part of the solutions needed

Edited December 28, 2015 by tidal

[Guest]

I want to see what happens in Selby

Farming land on both sides of the river just above the town has not had the defence heights increased and this functions much the same as the traditional flood plain it used to be.

 

If Selby stays reasonably dry for the next few days then it may prove the worth of such schemes on major rivers.

 

Where I live, there has been a centuries old flooding problem in the local small town.

Quite a few years ago now they built a flood relief dam which allows only a certain amount of water through and allows the rest to flood the valley above (pasture) and gradually release the water down the river to stop sudden surges. It's only small river but it works even in these massive events. AND it clearly reduces the pressure on the bigger river it feeds into.

 

These sort of "old-fashioned" innovations are starting to appear all over the country and may be part of the solutions needed

Quite possible I would think. Damage limitation is what we are looking at.

I am convinced that the Leeds and Liverpool canal saved our village from much further flooding. It acted like a river taking water away from the hills above us.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Guest

[nicknorman]

I see the surface isobar chart for Tuesday night is showing a low off Iceland of 927mB. Not over the uk, but 927 must be close to a record for the North Atlantic. Don't think I've ever seen isobars so tightly packed. There's going to be some mega gales in Iceland.

 

Edited December 28, 2015 by nicknorman

[tidal]

It's too damned close to the record (916 afaik)

Going to be a bit draughty for certain

 

I'm wrong 920 in 93
Passed between the UK and Iceland

 

The 916 one was near Greenland

Edited December 28, 2015 by tidal

[churchward]

I expect a lot of people will have already found this website but I only came across it a few days ago when I got frustrated with the Resources Wales website when looking for flood warnings. All you need to do is type in a postcode/town name etc and it will show you the latest levels at measurement points and where the flood level is.

 

http://www.gaugemap.co.uk/

[MtB]

I see the surface isobar chart for Tuesday night is showing a low off Iceland of 927mB. Not over the uk, but 927 must be close to a record for the North Atlantic. Don't think I've ever seen isobars so tightly packed. There's going to be some mega gales in Iceland.

 

image.png

 

 

Nice map Nick.

 

I remember as a kid seeing the isobar map each day on the whether forecast on the telly. The world went to the dogs when stopped showing it in about 1970. Too technical for public to understand, apparently!

[adam1uk]

 

 

Nice map Nick.

 

I remember as a kid seeing the isobar map each day on the whether forecast on the telly. The world went to the dogs when stopped showing it in about 1970. Too technical for public to understand, apparently!

 

Except they haven't stopped showing the isobar map.

 

[Peter X]

They're being Frank with us.

I think the weatherman is saying "Oi, MtB, what are these then? You expect numbers too?"

[BruceinSanity]

I want to see what happens in Selby

Farming land on both sides of the river just above the town has not had the defence heights increased and this functions much the same as the traditional flood plain it used to be.

 

If Selby stays reasonably dry for the next few days then it may prove the worth of such schemes on major rivers.

 

Where I live, there has been a centuries old flooding problem in the local small town.

Quite a few years ago now they built a flood relief dam which allows only a certain amount of water through and allows the rest to flood the valley above (pasture) and gradually release the water down the river to stop sudden surges. It's only small river but it works even in these massive events. AND it clearly reduces the pressure on the bigger river it feeds into.

 

These sort of "old-fashioned" innovations are starting to appear all over the country and may be part of the solutions needed

This is how they manage the Nene, with flood storage reservoirs above Northampton and the Washlands below. After the rain stops, they take a couple of weeks to let it down the river with the locks reversed.

[Murflynn]

 

Except they haven't stopped showing the isobar map.

 

depends if you watch BBC or ITV. The weather forecasts presented by the latter seem to be produced for (and by??) morons.

[Pluto]

I do agree to some extent about building on flood plains (I live on one) and most of West Lancs is on flood plains one way or the other. Next year two major pumping stations that keep these flood plains dry are being switched off to save money! What could possibly go wrong?

Thing is people have to live somewhere, and quality building land is expensive; what are they to do?

I think that house design needs to be re-thought, with the "ground" floor being built slightly higher perhaps? My daughter's flat in Germany is thus, you go up a few steps to the "ground" floor. Should it flood (they are near the Rhine) the cellar would flood, but highly unlikely the ground floor flat would. Perhaps the way forward is first floor accommodation, with garage/utility etc underneath at ground floor?

This is on the 'towpath' alongside the Rhine in Cologne. I visited the flood defenses a couple of years ago, and IIRC they were working on the possibility of a 13 metre flood, having had some around 12 metres. The flood engineers said that, besides more modern systems, they were reverting to more traditional methods and creating flood plains above the city to reduce flow.

[tidal]

I expect a lot of people will have already found this website but I only came across it a few days ago when I got frustrated with the Resources Wales website when looking for flood warnings. All you need to do is type in a postcode/town name etc and it will show you the latest levels at measurement points and where the flood level is.

 

http://www.gaugemap.co.uk/

The EA one is almost as good if you work out how to use it

 

https://flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/river-and-sea-levels

This is how they manage the Nene, with flood storage reservoirs above Northampton and the Washlands below. After the rain stops, they take a couple of weeks to let it down the river with the locks reversed.

Indeed

It's a proven management system that currently works

Essentially that is how natural flood plains work as well (when they are allowed to)

[Scholar Gypsy]

Some good pictures of the Bedford Ouse washes in operation here

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulSeparovicEA?p=s

[Alan de Enfield]

There may be some mis-management, there may be 'planning decisions' that have impacted on the severity of the floods but for the fundamental reasons the following has more than a grain of truth in it :

 

Following David Cameron's denial that there was a North-South divide when it comes to flood defences, floods minister Rory Stewart has appeared on TV this morning.

He defended the cuts made in the previous coalition government to flood defences saying that £1.8 billion had been spent in the last parliament.

Mr Stewart told Good Morning Britain: "Underlying the central problem I'm afraid is the weather. We have never had rain like this before.

"We have been dealing with this for nearly three-and-a-half weeks now. We started with more rain than had ever been seen in a day in the United Kingdom. We have had more rain than has ever happened in this month.

"Rivers here which haven't flooded in this way for 75 years are 15 feet up. I'm afraid that is the fundamental problem here.

"We are spending an enormous amount of money on flood defences. In the end what is beating us is this relentless rain."

 

It may be that this climate change is here to stay and that we have to adapt to differing weather patterns, but it is quite normal to plan based on historical data.

At what level would the defences have to be built to quiet the complainers ?

What then happens when those defences are topped ?

[pearley]

The newish flats built just above Selby Lock have car parking spaces at ground level with the first living spaces above, meaning the water would have to flood 6 or 7 feet before it damaged anything. Of course, the residents would have to be well supplied.

[tidal]

The newish flats built just above Selby Lock have car parking spaces at ground level with the first living spaces above, meaning the water would have to flood 6 or 7 feet before it damaged anything. Of course, the residents would have to be well supplied.

 

 

I suspect that there will be more similar developments in the next decade

Strangely enough 40 years ago I lived in a estuary property which was of a similar design (and had been for a couple of centuries).

[churchward]

The EA one is almost as good if you work out how to use it

 

https://flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/river-and-sea-levels

I am not sure it is worth working out how to use something that is almost as good but the real trouble is for a complete picture of places in Wales it says to go to the Resource Wales website who are the equivalent of EA here.

Edited December 29, 2015 by churchward

[rustydiver]

it's nothing to do with 'up north'.

 

Somerset was treated no better, although finally some work was done (dredging) which was of minimal benefit.

 

I wouldn't blame the EA. I would blame councils for allowing development on flood plains (now and historically) and for not insisting that building floors are constructed at higher levels in vulnerable areas. It doesn't take a genius to see where flooding is likely/possible. I suggest there should be schemes that make it worthwhile for local authorities to reserve the low-lying ground near rivers for uses other than housing and industry.

That is very true, we weren't treated any better down here, it took ages before they would do much the attitude was the levels are supposed to flood it wasn't until the threat off the Taunton flooding they soon acted.

We've all said it here it's the lack off maintence off the rivers eg Parret the drains that go into it that caused it to flood. The dredging is minimul it may be ok where they have done it but you only need to come into Bridgwater stand outside the old hospital and look across to the libary to see how much silted up the river is its at least 1/3 narrower.

About 4 years ago on carnival night we had a bad storm the storm drains flowing into the river backed up so badly it just blew the wall out. One off he jobs the fater in laws dad used to do many years ago was go inside and inspect and clean them. It's not done anymore.

 

Edited December 29, 2015 by rustydiver

[Guest]

This is on the 'towpath' alongside the Rhine in Cologne. I visited the flood defenses a couple of years ago, and IIRC they were working on the possibility of a 13 metre flood, having had some around 12 metres. The flood engineers said that, besides more modern systems, they were reverting to more traditional methods and creating flood plains above the city to reduce flow.

Interesting, where on the Rhine is that? Edit, sorry I missed you had said Cologne. I know one bar we drink in along the Rhine has markers on the wall from where the Rhine has flooded it over many years. They are seriously high!

My daughter is close to the Ford factory just outside of Cologne (Nheil.)

Edited December 29, 2015 by Guest

[blackrose]

Frank is on its way! The river I'm moored on was about a foot over the bank yesterday. It went down about a foot last night but I think this next weather system will flood it properly because the land is saturated.

 

I'll be ok because I'm prepared. I have a ladder to get on and off the boat, chest waders, life jackets, and if it gets really bad a dinghy and outboard engine. But 3 or 4 of my new neighbours here have nothing. They only moved here in the last year and haven't seen it in full flood. I keep trying to tell them but they don't listen. They don't seem to understand the concept of preparation. Once it floods it's too late to do anything.

[Guest]

Frank is on its way! The river I'm moored on was about a foot over the bank yesterday. It went down about a foot last night but I think this next weather system will flood it properly because the land is saturated.

 

I'll be ok because I'm prepared. I have a ladder to get on and off the boat, chest waders, life jackets, and if it gets really bad a dinghy and outboard engine. But 3 or 4 of my new neighbours here have nothing. They only moved here in the last year and haven't seen it in full flood. I keep trying to tell them but they don't listen. They don't seem to understand the concept of preparation. Once it floods it's too late to do anything.

Sad when people have to learn the hard way. I was amazed at the height of the mooring poles on the Avon when we were on there. I can see why you have prepared yourself! Stay safe.

[FadeToScarlet]

Frank is on its way! The river I'm moored on was about a foot over the bank yesterday. It went down about a foot last night but I think this next weather system will flood it properly because the land is saturated.

 

I'll be ok because I'm prepared. I have a ladder to get on and off the boat, chest waders, life jackets, and if it gets really bad a dinghy and outboard engine. But 3 or 4 of my new neighbours here have nothing. They only moved here in the last year and haven't seen it in full flood. I keep trying to tell them but they don't listen. They don't seem to understand the concept of preparation. Once it floods it's too late to do anything.

I bet you feel like Noah