Dispute at Pillings

[Nightwatch]

.With regard to the moorings attached to the lease, you would be at the mercy of the operator, he can stick you wherever he likes, whenever he likes. Ifyou didn't much care for your neighbours-tough!

I think that, you may find, is common practice in most marinas and mooring locations.

 

My worry would be is I have a lease on a car space. If there are no moorings available is that tough as well?

 

Martyn

[frangar]

Quorn properties most certainly DO have an outstanding mortgage

 

A quick check online of the various sites that provide company information does make for interesting reading about the various companies based there. It might be worth anyone thinking of mooring there to get a full report.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Mike Tee]

I quite enjoy a bit of a dig on the net, so after half an hour I've come up with very little (without spending money on searches) -

 

Pillings Lock Marina ltd and Quorn Marina Properties ltd are both wholly owned subsidiaries of Quorn Marina Holdings Ltd.

 

And Quorn Marina Holdings shares are held by Paul Lillie 25% and Matthew Steadman 75%

 

The financial info only goes up to 2012 but says -

Quorn Marina Properties Ltd has assets of £1.9m and debts of £1.9m !

Pillings Lock Marina Ltd has net assets of £390K (without seeing accounts this does not tell us if the BW/C&RT debt is recognised in these numbers)

Quorn Marina Holdings Ltd has net assets of £790k which presumably includes Pillings Lock Marina Ltd

 

There is a Quorn Property Ltd listed, but the names of the shareholders are not either of the above mentioned, so I've discounted them, also as the company seems to be dormant with zero assets

 

All of the above is in the public domain so don't think I've trodden on any toes. Of course, all the above may well have changed since publication.

[steve hayes]

Mike's digging is correct the usual web you often find of small companies each sharing assets and liabilities !!!!

But what Mike didn't say is that the only director of all the companies is Paul Lillie.

[mark99]

I quite enjoy a bit of a dig on the net, so after half an hour I've come up with very little (without spending money on searches) -

 

Pillings Lock Marina ltd and Quorn Marina Properties ltd are both wholly owned subsidiaries of Quorn Marina Holdings Ltd.

 

And Quorn Marina Holdings shares are held by Paul Lillie 25% and Matthew Steadman 75%

 

The financial info only goes up to 2012 but says -

Quorn Marina Properties Ltd has assets of £1.9m and debts of £1.9m !

Pillings Lock Marina Ltd has net assets of £390K (without seeing accounts this does not tell us if the BW/C&RT debt is recognised in these numbers)

Quorn Marina Holdings Ltd has net assets of £790k which presumably includes Pillings Lock Marina Ltd

 

There is a Quorn Property Ltd listed, but the names of the shareholders are not either of the above mentioned, so I've discounted them, also as the company seems to be dormant with zero assets

 

All of the above is in the public domain so don't think I've trodden on any toes. Of course, all the above may well have changed since publication.

 

 

Pretty common for an asset rich company.

 

Shelter the asset in a seperate Co. If the risky operational side of the business gets into trouble, the value of the main assets are protected.

[Ally]

I'm offering 5/1 on a lock within the next 2 pages and 1/5 on a Narrowboat World article off the back of this thread.

Not sure it was off the back of this thread, but there is an article there now

[mark99]

 

I've heard there is a waiting list!

 

 

That's the exit queue/list.

[Mike Todd]

But he will still owe the judgement money to CaRT regardless of whether he closes up the marina in the future. These are valid charges, under a contract he signed, for services already paid. If Access Charges are removed across the system, boaters licences will have to go up toi compensate for the lost income so most of us (esp those not paying these charges via a marina) have a vested interest!

 

Welcome to the forum boat hermit.

 

From what you say about CRT revoking the access agreement, it seems there is now no going back. Pillings will cease to be a marina in three months.

 

Maybe Mr Lillie planned this all along and is entirely content with the situation, as he (or his company) appears to have just pocketed the access fees. Just my idle speculation.

 

MtB

 

 

MtB

[Hey Ho]

But he will still owe the judgement money to CaRT regardless of whether he closes up the marina in the future.

 

Not personally he won't, not if his company is a limited liability one, which it appears he's had the foresight to see that it is.

 

That's less likely to be the case with his mortgage (if he has one) on the land & buildings, which his bank will probably have had the foresight to secure on his own personal assets. Not as reckless as you thought, these bankers

[Paul H]

BW and presumably CRT usually asked for a Director's financial guarantee for network access agreements in case the worse happened. And in this case it seems it has. So a limited liability company may be no protection.

Paul

[Hey Ho]

Ah, another thing I've learned. Good on them.

[tillergirl]

FWIW I reckon its good to see CRT sending the message out that they are happy to put the big boys into the enforcement process as well as the individual boater. Somehow it feels as if they are redressing the balance. I hope the reality is that they succeed in getting whats owed to them. I'm sure that 180k will go along way to top up their "emergency pot".

[Liam]

Just out of curiousity, does anybody know if British Waterways Marinas Ltd pays the same NAA or connection charge as the other marinas?

[Paul H]

BWML's accounts are available online but it is unclear whether their marinas pay a connection charge. They do pay a Service Level Agreement charge of £72K whatever that is but thats only £3.6K per each of their 20 marina. They also don't seem to pay business rates so it is far from a level playing field!

Paul

[alan_fincher]

I also wonder what happens where BWML acquire what was a privately owned marina, such as they did with Cow Roast?

[Richard Fairhurst]

There's a "protocol" which sets out how CRT and BWML interact. I don't think it's been published, but as it was drawn up in the BW days, you could probably FoI it (or just ask CRT).

 

Worth noting that there are ~30 marinas around the system which don't pay a connection charge for historical reasons. Some are on rivers but by no means all. They tend to be longer-established locations and I wouldn't be surprised if a few of the BWML ones were on the list - but it's seven or eight years since I briefly saw the list, so can't remember many!

[ditchcrawler]

This wont be the first marina that BW/CaRT have piled across the entrance. Think back a few years to I think Yardley Gobin. That was shut off for some time.

[Stilllearning]

If BWML don't pay the same charges as everyone else, isn't it about time they did? And how come they may be avoiding paying business rates?

[Jerra]

Who owns BWML?

[Alan Saunders]

Pillings does look to be a nice place marred by poor management. If several occupants offered to pay their share of the NAA maybe CRT could provide a locked barrier rather than permananent piling across the entrance?

 

If there are enough existing and prospective moorers maybe they could buy the lease for the moorings (not the Bistro/Bar etc.) like many flat-owners have?

 

I am truly sorry for and sympathetic to those who may lose money and their mooring. Surely CRT can provide them with a temporary solution, e.g. unlimited tow-path moorings for, say, a year or until they are allowed back into the Marina? Rather than just serving what is effectively an eviction notice CRT could actively find and offer nearby (<50 miles?) vacant moorings.

 

When a decent buiness is let down by a supplier they make every effort to ensure that the customer is 'delighted' with them despite the inadequacy or bankruptcy of the intermediary. CRT directors should be offering to personally visit the affected moorers to explain the situation and reassure them that all is being done to protect their interests. Even if CRT are right to demand £180K from Pillings etc. their ultimate customer is the boater.

 

Alan

[Bettie Boo]

Pillings does look to be a nice place marred by poor management. If several occupants offered to pay their share of the NAA maybe CRT could provide a locked barrier rather than permananent piling across the entrance?

 

If there are enough existing and prospective moorers maybe they could buy the lease for the moorings (not the Bistro/Bar etc.) like many flat-owners have?

 

I am truly sorry for and sympathetic to those who may lose money and their mooring. Surely CRT can provide them with a temporary solution, e.g. unlimited tow-path moorings for, say, a year or until they are allowed back into the Marina? Rather than just serving what is effectively an eviction notice CRT could actively find and offer nearby (<50 miles?) vacant moorings.

 

When a decent buiness is let down by a supplier they make every effort to ensure that the customer is 'delighted' with them despite the inadequacy or bankruptcy of the intermediary. CRT directors should be offering to personally visit the affected moorers to explain the situation and reassure them that all is being done to protect their interests. Even if CRT are right to demand £180K from Pillings etc. their ultimate customer is the boater.

 

Alan

Hi Alan,

 

I'd have to say I don't actually agree with your views regarding CRT looking after the the affected boaters with moorings, if it does indeed come to locking/blocking the entrance to the marina. I believe C&RT have actually done their bit in notifying said boaters of the planned action.

 

Boater's pay a license fee to C&RT to allow them to cruise on the rivers and canals they control. By C&RT taking the time and effort to notify the people based at Pillings Lock Marina of the proposed action I think they have met their obligation to the boaters ensuring they have the information needed so they can still have access to partake of their licenses.

 

From my understanding, and please correct me if I've misunderstood; this marina was in agreement with C&RT to pay them for a right of way onto C&RT waters. They have neglected to pay this and C&RT are now forcing the issue of payment in the most feasible way they can without incurring court costs (using money which could be spent on maintenance of the canals). If anyone has a duty to assist the boaters who have moorings at Pillings, I would hazard to say it should lay with the people at Pillings Marina. The people who received the mooring fee paid by the boaters.

 

Let's say you rent a house, and the gas for the fireplace and stove is included in the price of the rent. If the gas was turned off because the land lord didn't pay the gas bill, you would expect the land lord to sort it out and more than likely in some way to be compensated for your inconvenience. Or at least that's how I would see it. Yes, I would hope that the gas company would drop something through the letter box before the cut off, advising me it was going to happen; in which case I would be right onto the land lord.

 

I don't profess to be an expert in any shape or form on these matters, this is simply my opinion after reading this thread and the links to the press releases.

 

B~

[Paul G2]

Perhaps someone should tell CRT about an "Assignment of Rents" clause. If they had an Assignment of Rents in their contracts, anytime a company like Pilling doesn't pay the fees due, CRT can step in and collect the rent directly from the moored boaters until their fees are paid. It seems foolish for CRT to allow things to get to the point they are.

[pillingslock]

Dear Forum, here is the response to our berth holders and I'm certain that matters will be resolved in the coming weeks;

 

Dear Berth Holders

 

As an update from yesterdays correspondence I would like to let you know that we have had legal advice on the letter sent to you by Phil Spencer on 16^th January 2014.

 

I can confirm that Para. 4 of Mr Spencers Letter stating that our agreements have been terminated , actually means there is no agreement in place. Therefore there is no requirement for Quorn Marina Properties Ltd to disconnect the access to the Canal.

 

I can assure you we will have any other matters resolved over the coming months and again apologise that you have been subjected to a letter that is partly inaccurate and from a very biased perspective. The letter does not detail that any new company stepping into the role of the prior company has the right to a connection to the waterway which cannot be unreasonably withheld, therefore we do not expect any of your services to be affected.

 

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me & if it is after office hours please do feel free to call me on my mobile – 07747 047740.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Paul Lillie

Managing Director

Pilling's Lock Marina Ltd

Flesh Hovel Lane - Quorn - Leicestershire - LE12 8FE

tel - 01509 620990 / fax - 084555 76587

[adam1uk]

Perhaps someone should tell CRT about an "Assignment of Rents" clause. If they had an Assignment of Rents in their contracts, anytime a company like Pilling doesn't pay the fees due, CRT can step in and collect the rent directly from the moored boaters until their fees are paid. It seems foolish for CRT to allow things to get to the point they are.

 

The access charge has nothing to do with the boaters -- it's between the marina and CRT. The charge is payable even if there are no boats in the marina.

[Ronniesonic]

 

Dear Forum, here is the response to our berth holders and I'm certain that matters will be resolved in the coming weeks;

 

Dear Berth Holders

 

As an update from yesterdays correspondence I would like to let you know that we have had legal advice on the letter sent to you by Phil Spencer on 16^th January 2014.

 

I can confirm that Para. 4 of Mr Spencers Letter stating that our agreements have been terminated , actually means there is no agreement in place. Therefore there is no requirement for Quorn Marina Properties Ltd to disconnect the access to the Canal.

 

I can assure you we will have any other matters resolved over the coming months and again apologise that you have been subjected to a letter that is partly inaccurate and from a very biased perspective. The letter does not detail that any new company stepping into the role of the prior company has the right to a connection to the waterway which cannot be unreasonably withheld, therefore we do not expect any of your services to be affected.

 

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me & if it is after office hours please do feel free to call me on my mobile – 07747 047740.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Paul Lillie

Managing Director

Pilling's Lock Marina Ltd

Flesh Hovel Lane - Quorn - Leicestershire - LE12 8FE

tel - 01509 620990 / fax - 084555 76587

 

LOL