Dispute at Pillings

[BEngo]

But CRT can make sure that the terms offered for the access agreement are at least the same if not more draconian in the hope of not having to deal with the same people.

 

 

CRT have a standard Marina Access agreement, inherited from BW. All new Marinas have the same agreement and the same charge- An annual charge of 9% of mooring fees calculated on the basis that all moorings are occupied. The first year is free, the second year is, IIRC, half-price then year three onwards is full rate.

 

N

[Athy]

Couldn't have put it better myself dor

 

My sediments exactly

On what grounds?

[14skipper]

we always tried to pay what we could afford and what we thought was reasonable in the circumstances.

 

 

Paul Lillie

Ah the perfect world.

How much is that Ferrari,

Hm £95.000 pounds sir

give you a fiver for it.

Sorry sir not enough.

Well thats all i can afford and l think thats very reasonable under the circumstances.

Would sir be taking it now or shall will deliver ?

 

14Skipper

[PaulG]

Ah the perfect world.

How much is that Ferrari,

Hm £95.000 pounds sir

give you a fiver for it.

Sorry sir not enough.

Well thats all i can afford and l think thats very reasonable under the circumstances.

Would sir be taking it now or shall will deliver ?

 

14Skipper

[matty40s]

Couldn't have put it better myself dor

 

My sediments exactly

Indeed, Mr Lillie(Jnr) is settling to the bottom of the piling with this one.

[pillingslock]

Rejecting substantial cheques which the marina sent to them, and then moaning that the marina owes them £180,000, does not sound like good or honest business practice on the part of Cart (and presumably BW before them). If they'd have banked those cheques, then the marina would now owe them less than that. In business, any payment is better than no payment and should be accepted on account.

Thanks Athy - we feel this way too. We have made an effort to pay to the tune of £41k over 6 years. CRT haven't offered one penny of 'discount' to take into consideration Market Forces that were not present when we signed the agreement, but became worse and worse as the years followed.

 

No one told us that there would be 3000 new empty marina berths built after we signed and no one could have guessed that so many people were going to exercise their right to Continually Cruise.

 

It was far from our aim to not be able to pay the NAA fees and we started writing to Phil Spencer in 2009 to say we were going to struggle to pay all of the fees but we would carry on trying our best to pay something rather than paying nothing.

 

We understand the Waterways need money to survive and we completely uphold the fact that boats in our marina were subject to 365 day per year licensing too, whereas other marinas not 2 miles away have the facility to "SORN" boats therefore contributing nothing to the CRT pot in many cases.

 

We had a feeling that other marinas pay less than we did - but we were shocked to find out in July 2013 that 10 of our neighbours pay nothing at all. Not a bean! I have been boating in this area since I was 3 years old and I never thought there would be such a huge variance in the difference of what the market needed in 2006/2007 to what the market supports and needs in 2014.

 

We do sincerely hope that the new company involved can enter into a sensible new agreement with CRT as quickly as possible and minimal further fuss can be made.

 

I would also like to thank again the people that have been so supportive to us as a business. It is truly appreciated and testimony to the hard work of all of my team here at Pilling's Lock.

[PaulG]

CRT haven't offered one penny of 'discount' to take into consideration Market Forces that were not present when we signed the agreement, but became worse and worse as the years followed.

Where does it say in your contract that you are entitled to this "discount"?

Would you have paid C&RT extra money if "Market Forces" gone the other way and resulted in extra profits for the Marina?

[matty40s]

 

 

We understand the Waterways need money to survive and we completely uphold the fact that boats in our marina were subject to 365 day per year licensing too, whereas other marinas not 2 miles away have the facility to "SORN" boats therefore contributing nothing to the CRT pot in many cases.

 

We had a feeling that other marinas pay less than we did - but we were shocked to find out in July 2013 that 10 of our neighbours pay nothing at all. Not a bean! I have been boating in this area since I was 3 years old and I never thought there would be such a huge variance in the difference of what the market needed in 2006/2007 to what the market supports and needs in 2014.

 

Barrow (Potters?)and Sileby Marina, Crockers Farm (all full with waiting lists) have been there for many years before you came up with your plan for Pillings.

They were also there before BW. The fact that they pay not a bean should have been clear to you on doing your feasability study, and in any case, should not have affected your plans as they were existing already, not subsequent to your excavations.

Some new marinas seem to be doing very well, Mercia,Barton, Grove Lock, Kingsbury, what are they doing right which you aren't??

[gaggle]

No doubt some mugs will still do business with this place when it opens up again.

[Paul C]

I don't think we can be too harsh. There's been a recession of great proportions, nobody could have predicted how deep it would be, and how long it would have gone on for. 5 years ago, things looked rosy and boat numbers were increasing, it would have been easy to be convinced by a business plan which took this into consideration. What's happened has been a worst case scenario. Boat numbers are no longer increasing, boaters are feeling the financial squeeze like everyone else and continuous cruising has risen in popularity, no doubt partly due to its reduced cost compared to a home mooring.

 

The network access agreement is basically, another indirect payment made by boaters to CRT, via the marina they're at, even taking into account that the agreement is based on number of berths in total (not just occupied). Anyone with a brain will see that its a cost that the marina pays, which has to be met by its customers, and their moorers are the steady income forming the majority of those - simple arithmetic.

 

End-of-garden mooring charges are a similar thing.

 

The fact that BW made it fixed (and thus inflexible) might possibly be seen as fair, but in a recession its going to have effects such as this, so in a way I can partially see the marina's argument that its actually quite unfair, especially when comparing to older marinas where no agreement exists. If more marinas feel the squeeze and can somehow cooperate to launch a larger, focused campaign to CRT, then possibly the agreement could be altered going forwards. But one upset marina isn't going to change much, especially with high court cases against it and strengthening CRT's position.

 

Of course, the boaters stuck in the marina are kinda caught in the middle of it, but plenty of notice is given, there's plenty of other marinas and there's always the option to move the boat, so its not disasterous for them.

 

For this particular marina (operator) the future doesn't look bright though.

[Nightwatch]

Just as an aside. (Is that right?)

 

To me, and I don't own a marina, I would have thought that the money paid to C&RT for moorings should be based on occupied berths, not total number of berths available.

 

It is likely over the years that circumstances change, new marinas appear, recessions hit leisure and all that go with that. I can see that C&RT want to make money but regarding connecting charges, flexibility ought to be thought about.

 

Having said that, if I had signed up to an agreement I would expect to adhere to those terms within until such time that I either get out or re-negotiate the contract/agreement.

 

Above post was posted before I posted mine.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Nightwatch

[matty40s]

Sawley has only around 70% occupancy, plenty of room there.....if you want to stick with that kind of management.

[matty40s]

To me, and I don't own a marina, I would have thought that the money paid to C&RT for moorings should be based on occupied berths, not total number of berths available.

 

I enquired about winter moorings for a short period (3 months or less) when in Hertforshire, the marina wouldn't do anything less than 6 months as that was what they had to pay BW for filled moorings. They didn't have to pay for ones empty for a 6 month period.

Edited January 20, 2014 by matty40s

[BEngo]

I rather suspect that BW chose available moorings as the benchmark rather than occupied moorings because the former is much easier to measure initially and subsequently police and it produces a predictable revenue stream. Occupied moorings is complicated/time consuming to prove and open to manipulation by the unscrupulous.

 

N

[Nightwatch]

So, it is based on occupied moorings then.

 

Or are there different agreements available.

 

Where we moor,at a farm, there are possibly about a dozen moorings. At the moment there are a few vacancies, does mr Farmer still pay a 'contribution' to C&RT for the vacant berths?

 

Perhaps I ought to ask the question. Maybe why there is a three month notice of leaving requirement.

Martyn

[junior]

When I was first looking into buying a boat I lived in the Pillings Lock area. I would regularly go out walking on the towpath talking to boaters and almost EVERYBODY told me to steer well clear of Pillings Lock Marina. That was on the basis of the management and the way the place was run, rather than location or anything else.

 

Perhaps the key to My Lilly filling those vacant berths and making more money, would be to address why his Marina has such a bad reputation.

[Nightwatch]

I rather suspect that BW chose available moorings as the benchmark rather than occupied moorings because the former is much easier to measure initially and subsequently police and it produces a predictable revenue stream. Occupied moorings is complicated/time consuming to prove and open to manipulation by the unscrupulous.

 

N

Trust, where has it gone????

When I was first looking into buying a boat I lived in the Pillings Lock area. I would regularly go out walking on the towpath talking to boaters and almost EVERYBODY told me to steer well clear of Pillings Lock Marina. That was on the basis of the management and the way the place was run, rather than location or anything else.

Perhaps the key to My Lilly filling those vacant berths and making more money, would be to address why his Marina has such a bad reputation.

Not too long after I joined the forum there was a member having a right old ding dong, with Pilling. Was it Social Hermit? Sorry to you if it wasn't.

 

Not sure now what it was about. I think he had had a disagreement and wanted to leave. So nowt changed there then.

[matty40s]

There is nothing wrong with the location, the Soar floods occasionally but always has done (although young Pillie probably didn't investigate this before his business plan either).

There isn't much wrong with the facilities either, although the cafe/bistro doesn't exactly sell itself to regular boaty custom, more the WI coach trips.

[RichardH]

When I was first looking into buying a boat I lived in the Pillings Lock area. I would regularly go out walking on the towpath talking to boaters and almost EVERYBODY told me to steer well clear of Pillings Lock Marina. That was on the basis of the management and the way the place was run, rather than location or anything else.

 

Perhaps the key to My Lilly filling those vacant berths and making more money, would be to address why his Marina has such a bad reputation.

 

Indeed, but it is very rare that the manager or owner of a business turns round and says 'actually the reason for failure was me'

 

Anyone who writes an open letter to a customer, however irritating they are (and believe me we have had several), and posts it publicly has to take a long hard look at themselves and ask 'am I in the right business'

 

I genuinely feel sorry for CRT as they are the ones out of pocket. The owners of the marina signed the agreement. End of. Just because boaters choose not to moor their is not CRT's fault. The moorings at the marina close to us have been full with a waiting list since day 1.

 

I don't buy the sob story about over supply of moorings either. The 10 marinas in the vicinity could have sobbed that their failings were due to BW granting permission for Pilings.

[alan_fincher]

Some new marinas seem to be doing very well, Mercia,Barton, Grove Lock, Kingsbury, what are they doing right which you aren't??

 

Paying CRT the agreed connection charges?

[gaggle]

The mans own father has disowned him ,its not just customers and cart he cant get along with.

[KevMc]

I rather suspect that BW chose available moorings as the benchmark rather than occupied moorings because the former is much easier to measure initially and subsequently police and it produces a predictable revenue stream. Occupied moorings is complicated/time consuming to prove and open to manipulation by the unscrupulous.

 

N

 

If you ignore visitors it should be a piece of cake for CRT to work out the number of boats moored because they have the information on the licence application

[matty40s]

The mans own father has disowned him ,its not just customers and cart he cant get along with.

The ducks moved out last October.

[gaggle]

 

If you ignore visitors it should be a piece of cake for CRT to work out the number of boats moored because they have the information on the licence application

He has signed a deal , he agreed to that and if he wanted to work to a different tune he should not have signed , dor had it right earlier , the fella is acting like a cowboy.

[Bettie Boo]

We have made an effort to pay to the tune of £41k over 6 years. CRT haven't offered one penny of 'discount' to take into consideration Market Forces that were not present when we signed the agreement, but became worse and worse as the years followed. So less than 25% of what is owed has been paid? And you feel your entitled to a discount, based on ???? Poor market research before going into business. The recessions that every other business in the UK has had to contend with? That you don't feel the contract you signed was "fair"

 

No one told us that there would be 3000 new empty marina berths built after we signed and no one could have guessed that so many people were going to exercise their right to Continually Cruise. If I remember correctly, I recently read a statement from C&RT that the CC licenses had increased somewhere between 2 - 3 hundred. Based on that, it would still leave approx 2700 new empty marina berths. Therefore using the increase of CC licenses as a major factor to you not fulfilling your contractual obligations to C&RT is somewhat diminished.

 

It was far from our aim to not be able to pay the NAA fees and we started writing to Phil Spencer in 2009 to say we were going to struggle to pay all of the fees but we would carry on trying our best to pay something rather than paying nothing. In what form of reality do you operate? What business would expect to maintain a contractual agreement with a supplier, who only pays the supplier, what they can afford rather than fulfill their agreement/contract

 

We understand the Waterways need money to survive and we completely uphold the fact that boats in our marina were subject to 365 day per year licensing too, whereas other marinas not 2 miles away have the facility to "SORN" boats therefore contributing nothing to the CRT pot in many cases. Screams lack of meaningful research prior to going into business or a complete lack of a realistic business plan to begin with

 

We had a feeling that other marinas pay less than we did - but we were shocked to find out in July 2013 that 10 of our neighbours pay nothing at all. Not a bean! I have been boating in this area since I was 3 years old and I never thought there would be such a huge variance in the difference of what the market needed in 2006/2007 to what the market supports and needs in 2014. You'll find most businesses didn't know what 2014 would hold for them 8 years prior - how is this relevant?

 

We do sincerely hope that the new company involved can enter into a sensible new agreement with CRT as quickly as possible and minimal further fuss can be made. And if Your new company doesn't pay the agreed fees, what then? Just keep opening new phoenix companies?

 

I would also like to thank again the people that have been so supportive to us as a business. It is truly appreciated and testimony to the hard work of all of my team here at Pilling's Lock.

You seem quite comfortable to blame everyone else; C&RT, the economy, CC'ers, other long and well established marina's, for the lack of your company fulfilling it's contractual obligations. And reading between the lines you seem to be saying, well it didn't quite work out like I thought it would the first time round - I've found a loop hole so I don't have to pay what's owed, and can simply start over with a clean slate where you HOPE?? to be able to fulfill any future contract