Dispute at Pillings

[Jerra]

'Incompetence referred to the fact that if whoever had been in charge 3 years ago did their job, the debt would not be £180k, it would be a lot nearer to £44k.

Not particularly addressing this towards Mike (his post just brought things to mind). CRT "don't seem to be able to do right for doing wrong" if you see what I mean. If a CCer doesn't pay their license and an eviction follows they are by some (many?) classed as the lowest of the low. On the other hand when something is allowed to run on to give things time to get sorted out they are incompetent.

 

They just can't win.

[Willber G]

...

A fair solution might be to retroactively reduce the charges due so that the fees only apply to occupied berths, rather than all berths, and then have the CRT agree not to flood the market with too many marinas.

...

But CRT would have to apply this reduction to all marinas which would cost them (I imagine) a lot more than £180,000.

[OldGoat]

But CRT would have to apply this reduction to all marinas which would cost them (I imagine) a lot more than £180,000.

It was a flawed model in the first place - but it was pretty obviously bad. But the marina operators were so keen to get on the bandwagon that they signed on the dotted line. Now that they can't get full occupancy (and that may be the result of their marketing / support and so on), they are screaming and have done so for a while.

 

Neither side seem inclined to rush to court.

CaRT have cheaper processes to try first

What does Pillings have?

My guess is they'll rely on the boaters taking some form of action.

[adam1uk]

Reading the news articles that were linked above, it appears that neither party to this dispute is guilt free.

 

The main factor in whether or not this marina will be profitable depends mainly upon occupancy, and occupancy relies heavily upon supply and demand. The people who built this marina relied upon representations from CRT (or their predecessor) that it would be a good investment based on demand exceeding supply. CRT then apparently oversold marina permits, making supply exceed demand.

 

If I were the marina owner, I'd be in court too - and I would probably win if I could show that CRT in any way insinuated that they would limit the supply and then oversold the market.

 

Nobody wins the way this thing is headed, the parties should work to resolve the matter. A fair solution might be to retroactively reduce the charges due so that the fees only apply to occupied berths, rather than all berths, and then have the CRT agree not to flood the market with too many marinas.

 

Boaters should keep in mind too that it is not the marina owner that pays these fees, it is the boaters. The access fee is just another tax on boaters, but the CRT has made the marina responsible for assessing and collecting that tax, then passing it on to them.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of a newer marina in this area than Pillings Lock. The ones nearby are much longer established, and in general just small operations -- nothing on the scale of PL. It think it would be very difficult to argue that the area has been flooded with new marinas.

 

All marina owners know the access fee is coming down the track when they start up -- and it's even phased in so they have chance to fill up the marina. They pay nothing in the first year, half in the second year, and then the full fee from the third year onwards.

 

If PL isn't full, then one reason might be that it's position on a reason that floods quite regularly puts people off. I certainly wouldn't want to moor somewhere that you can't get out of for months at a time. The marina owners must have known that before they came up with their plans.

[alan_fincher]

 

As a slight sidestep of the main debate, this may be of interest to some to see what you may face if you fall out with the management at Pillings Lock Marina.

 

As this was lifted from Paul Lillie's personal Facebook page, where he had thought it perfectly acceptable to publish what he had said to some former tenants, I can see no reasons why it can't be reproduced here, (particularly as it has already available in full elsewhere on the forum for at least 6 months!).

 

If you have not previously seen it, it is well worth a read, if only for the gob-smacked amazement that Mr Lillie thought it was a good idea to make it public!......

Dear xxxxx & xxxxx,

 

Im so very dreadfully sorry I wasnt available to bid you a fond farewell when you left our lovely marina on Friday 31st May 2013. As you are probably aware the sun was shining I had a few social engagements and pub gardens to frequent with my friends & family on that day - which was a far more attractive set of activities than coming into work and possibly having to look at your pair of sad old faces.

When you pair were customers of ours, I would have been the model of professionalism, however, now you are not our clients please do realise that I can say whatever I like and read on

I understand that you seems to think we owe you some more money (as per your letters of 3rd June 2013) but sadly this is not the case (see response from my solicitor below).

You guys have basically had all youre going to get out of my company(s) and its all there in black & white with your signatures on the dotted lines. You had a lovely mooring here at our marina (past tense) but unfortunately for you, you were too stupid to realise what a great deal this was for you and you have blown it. There is no going back as we used some very competent and very expensive solicitors to cease our relationship with you pair of grumpy old sods. If you think we are worried about this cost, think again granddads! Because as far as I am concerned it was the best £46k we ever spent and we have already re-sold one of the leases to a nice person. Not a cantankerous old boat-hermit like you.

If you were not such a pair of silly old codgers you might realise this, but as I (and most of the people at the marina have found out) you are a total pair of nincompoops with barely a brain cell between you. Your best friends consist of a pair of scruffy dogs each and I doubt that up-close you can smell the difference between you all.

For the future, my advice is go and trot down to the local County Court and try and bring some more action against us for a couple of quid, because we wont have to do anything other than send a set of photocopies to the court each time you do this. Ill probably train one of the Janes in the office to do this as its such a simple task. Carry on wasting your time, because thats all you are going to waste. And please do carry on paying the Court Service to lodge each case as I cant wait to see how much more money you are ready to waste on your crusade against someone who is so obviously younger, prettier, sexier and generally far more fabulous than you pair will ever be (or ever have been). The hatred that so blatantly drives you on with this crusade against someone you are so insanely jealous of, is priceless. I couldnt have dreamed to have got you pair so mad that you resort to absolute diatribe. I love it! I love the fact you want to pay for Special Delivery on your letters and the cost of First Class stamps is astronomic these days, isnt it? Bet youve spent half your weeks pension with Royal Mail this week! Good for you!

Personally, I have never been happier to see the back of two people. I think it is hilarious that, even now, you are such vile, insipid old men that you cant possibly move on and enjoy the rest of the life God has granted you. You two are too pea-brained to realise we really couldnt give a flying fig about you and neither could 99.99% of the rest of the world. I smile to myself every time I think of you being friends with John Lillie another person with more issues than the country of Afghanistan. You really do deserve friends like that and I wish you well with all the fun you three are going to have together. If I didnt know better I would probably think the three of you all were a trio of vile old closet-cases who really have missed the boat.

Show this email to the Courts - or to the Police for that matter you should not have written to me this week and you have no business contacting me, my company(s). My staff or my customers for the next 5 years. Hopefully, after this time youll probably be in a home, either for the elderly or more likely for the insane.

Finally though, just to clarify, my current legal position (and the position of my company(s)) is this You cannot contact us, you cannot visit our premises, you cannot sue us for anything and you can basically ***k Off. I presume you fully understand what that means.

Now if you will excuse me I have some shopping to do and some friends to go and see as its my afternoon off.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Paul Lilliie

 

Edited January 18, 2014 by FadeToScarlet
To remove quoted obscenity.

[boat hermit]

I had a long mooring lease up to last year when after taking the marina to court over the over charging of electricity they settled out of court and refunded me the money I paid for my lease !

You may of seen his vindictive rant against us ? Anyway I have just recieved a letter from CART as I have not updated my mooring details and they assume I am still there .

It seems CART took the marina to the high court on the 6th December and won ! however the marina still refuses to pay so CART has revoked the access agreement and the marina has untill April to block the entrance themselves or CART will do it after the 15th of April .

I have to say a couple of years ago we were told he was going to collect the access charges from our mooring fees so he has no excuse as to why he hasnt paid his dues perhaps he thinks he can concentrate on his Bistro without any nasty boaters in the way many of which have been booted out of the marina in the past anyway .

Even his father a formed director has a ban on entering the marina for 5 years and so have I

not that I would ever think of going back .

 

 

[Guest]

Nice chap.. I will arrange to moor at pillings forthwith..

[Paul G2]

But CRT would have to apply this reduction to all marinas which would cost them (I imagine) a lot more than £180,000.

 

As well they should, IMHO. CRT controls the supply side of this equation. If they made certain representations to developers about limiting supply, and then oversold the market, this is a problem entirely of their making. Just because the trust is a quasi-government organisation doesn't mean they are exempt from laws protecting people from deceptive business practices.

 

This entire problem, again IMHO, goes back to the false premise that austerity budgets are somehow good for everyone, and that all or most public services should be supported by user fees. The wealthy people, the 1%-2% of the population that benefits from austerity budgets, quite honestly couldn't give a rat's patootie how the rest of us live and they couldn't care less about the quality of our lives or the availability to us of recreational facilities. They do, however, rely quite heavily upon government "corporate welfare" to ensure that they remain on top, that they make a profit and that any losses are covered by the taxpayer, whilst all profits go to them.

[alan_fincher]

Nice chap.. I will arrange to moor at pillings forthwith..

 

I've heard there is a waiting list!

[Willber G]

As well they should, IMHO. CRT controls the supply side of this equation. If they made certain representations to developers about limiting supply, and then oversold the market, this is a problem entirely of their making. Just because the trust is a quasi-government organisation doesn't mean they are exempt from laws protecting people from deceptive business practices.

...

I would agree with you if the above is true... but that's a big if which I imagine would be challenged by many marinas if it was.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Willber G

[Paul G2]

 

As a slight sidestep of the main debate, this may be of interest to some to see what you may face if you fall out with the management at Pillings Lock Marina.

 

As this was lifted from Paul Lillie's personal Facebook page, where he had thought it perfectly acceptable to publish what he had said to some former tenants, I can see no reasons why it can't be reproduced here, (particularly as it has already available in full elsewhere on the forum for at least 6 months!).

 

If you have not previously seen it, it is well worth a read, if only for the gob-smacked amazement that Mr Lillie thought it was a good idea to make it public!......

 

 

 

After reading that diatribe, I take back everything I said in defense of this Cretan. If there is any systemic problem here, it can be addressed after this clown has been put out of business.

I would agree with you if the above is true... but that's a big if which I imagine would be challenged by many marinas if it was.

 

According to one of the news articles you posted earlier, this supposedly is the case - or it's what the marina owner is claiming anyway.

 

After reading the diatribe the marina owner posted on Facebook, I'm now of the opinion that I wouldn't believe a word that came from his mouth. What a jerk!

[Ray T]

Nice chap.. I will arrange to moor at pillings forthwith..

 

Has another marina operator, not a 100 miles from here been taking lessons?

[Henhouse]

 

 

 

This entire problem, again IMHO, goes back to the false premise that austerity budgets are somehow good for everyone, and that all or most public services should be supported by user fees. The wealthy people, the 1%-2% of the population that benefits from austerity budgets, quite honestly couldn't give a rat's patootie how the rest of us live and they couldn't care less about the quality of our lives or the availability to us of recreational facilities. They do, however, rely quite heavily upon government "corporate welfare" to ensure that they remain on top, that they make a profit and that any losses are covered by the taxpayer, whilst all profits go to them.

I can't believe you are serious !!!! I take it this is just an anti government rant ?

[MtB]

I had a long mooring lease up to last year when after taking the marina to court over the over charging of electricity they settled out of court and refunded me the money I paid for my lease !

You may of seen his vindictive rant against us ? Anyway I have just recieved a letter from CART as I have not updated my mooring details and they assume I am still there .

It seems CART took the marina to the high court on the 6th December and won ! however the marina still refuses to pay so CART has revoked the access agreement and the marina has untill April to block the entrance themselves or CART will do it after the 15th of April .

I have to say a couple of years ago we were told he was going to collect the access charges from our mooring fees so he has no excuse as to why he hasnt paid his dues perhaps he thinks he can concentrate on his Bistro without any nasty boaters in the way many of which have been booted out of the marina in the past anyway .

Even his father a formed director has a ban on entering the marina for 5 years and so have I

not that I would ever think of going back .

 

 

 

Welcome to the forum boat hermit.

 

From what you say about CRT revoking the access agreement, it seems there is now no going back. Pillings will cease to be a marina in three months.

 

Maybe Mr Lillie planned this all along and is entirely content with the situation, as he (or his company) appears to have just pocketed the access fees. Just my idle speculation.

 

MtB

 

 

MtB

[adam1uk]

As well they should, IMHO. CRT controls the supply side of this equation. If they made certain representations to developers about limiting supply, and then oversold the market, this is a problem entirely of their making. Just because the trust is a quasi-government organisation doesn't mean they are exempt from laws protecting people from deceptive business practices.

Just because you repeat something doesn't make it true. Can you name any marinas in the area which are newer than Pillings Lock?

[Ally]

The nearest new marina is Willington, Derbyshire, a fair distance.

[dor]

The guy's going to go bankrupt - Can't see any other way out for him. Which will leave a number of moorers out of pocket. He will no doubt try and blame C&RT but I believe they are absolutely right in this.

 

Rather ironic that in his diatribe he talks about the moorers knowing exactly where they were when they signed on the dotted line - a bit like he did when he decided to open a marina without bothering to set out a proper business model.

[junior]

How long until the marina owner appears on this thread?

[frangar]

When it first opened the status of the moorings they were selling leases on as "residential" was a little dodgy as I recall.....not quite sure how those with the leases will be affected if it goes belly up.....I hope they got some legal advice before jumping in.....

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[johnlillie]

As a former director of Pillings lock marina who was involved from the outset, I feel I can shed light on this topic. We (myself and my former "son"among others) entered into an agreement with the then British waterways for a network access agreement, whereby we would pay 9% of all projected mooring fees, including unoccupied berths. The marina was filled in March 2007 (I personally removed the stop planks) and the fees commenced from March 2008. At the time there were 347 moorings of varying lengths. As far as I am aware, these fees have never been paid, that is why the C&RT took Pillings to court(actually, it was Quorn marina properties, who own the site), and won.

cant understand why previous post has lines through it, but I am sure the gist is there (Just got rid of them. Theo)

1. the leases will still be valid, even with a new owner/operator of the site, but whilst it is/when it is blocked off, I am not sure.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Theo
To get rid of strikethrough

[steven wilkinson]

 

As a former director of Pillings lock marina who was involved from the outset, I feel I can shed light on this topic. We (myself and my former "son"among others) entered into an agreement with the then British waterways for a network access agreement, whereby we would pay 9% of all projected mooring fees, including unoccupied berths. The marina was filled in March 2007 (I personally removed the stop planks) and the fees commenced from March 2008. At the time there were 347 moorings of varying lengths. As far as I am aware, these fees have never been paid, that is why the C&RT took Pillings to court(actually, it was Quorn marina properties, who own the site), and won.

cant understand why previous post has lines through it, but I am sure the gist is there

1. the leases will still be valid, even with a new owner/operator of the site, but whilst it is/when it is blocked off, I am not sure.

 

 

There you go!

[johnlillie]

As a further aside, NAA agreements are not new, ALL marinas with access directly on to the canal network (NOT RIVERS) have to pay, and have for some time, many years.

[Mike Tee]

Nice chap.. I will arrange to moor at pillings forthwith..

Could be an ideal spot for a hovercraft club

[Willber G]

 

As a former director of Pillings lock marina who was involved from the outset, I feel I can shed light on this topic. We (myself and my former "son"among others) entered into an agreement with the then British waterways for a network access agreement, whereby we would pay 9% of all projected mooring fees, including unoccupied berths. The marina was filled in March 2007 (I personally removed the stop planks) and the fees commenced from March 2008. At the time there were 347 moorings of varying lengths. As far as I am aware, these fees have never been paid, that is why the C&RT took Pillings to court(actually, it was Quorn marina properties, who own the site), and won.

cant understand why previous post has lines through it, but I am sure the gist is there

1. the leases will still be valid, even with a new owner/operator of the site, but whilst it is/when it is blocked off, I am not sure.

 

So it seems to be a simple case of financial mismanagement by your "former son" (a strange phrase).

[Southern Star]

So it seems to be a simple case of financial mismanagement by your "former son" (a strange phrase).

Was thinking exactly the same... surely no falling out over money can be worth the estrangement of father and son.

 

I hope the situation does get resolved, as a yet-to-be boater I had never heard of Pillings Marina but I looked at their website and it seemed a rather pleasant place to me.