Who to contact at CRT regarding property query?

[junior]

This is a random request...

 

We wish to change the appearance of our conservatory on the house. It is leaking from the flat part of the roof, and it is essentially useless as it is too cold in winter and too hot in summer. 

 

We wish to take the flat roof and domed rooflight off and put a pitched roof with a gable end/wall that is fully glazed, allowing a lovely view out over the canal. The existing glazing would then be triple glazed and the inside doors to the living room completely removed, making the 'conservatory' actually part of the whole living room.

 

In my opinion, from the outside this would look far better than the current conservatory which we believe is around 10 - 15 years old. It currently has a flat room and upvc roof dome light. The new roof would be made of slate, the same as what is on the rest of our house.

 

Anyway...the question...

 

In all the legal deeds and bumpf we got when we bought the house was 12 page document from 'British Waterways' with restrictions and clauses and stuff like that, and one of the clauses is that we must not change the appearance of the house from the canal. Doing what we want to do would change the appearance, but only in a small way and in my opinion be an improvement on what is currently there.

 

WHO WOULD WE SPEAK TO AT THE CANAL AND RIVER TRUST ABOUT THIS????????

 

I'd like to sound them out about whether they would be flatly against any changes regardless, because if they said they were then I could save myself the £900 in fees applying for planning permission. But I don't know who to go to to ask?

 

Our regional office would be Northwich. 

 

Also what about just doing it anyway 😀? I'm sure CRT have no idea the document exists, and I don't think anyone comes round every few weeks to make sure we've not changed the appearance of the house.

 

Apologies for putting this in the boating section...but I couldn't work out which section of the forum it should go in. Mods feel free to move if necessary. 

[mrsmelly]

Just " Doing it anyway " might have been an option before you announced it to the World on an internet forum!!

[Lady M]

Can you perhaps try to find out if the planning permission process would involve consulting CRT?

[dmr]

Planning matters are usually down to the local council rather than CRT, but if you have legal restrictions then its probably going to get complicated and expensive, CRT are quite likely to want a payment. 

Is this an ex lock cottage? and I assume its not listed?

 

A possible issue is that if you don't do this correctly then you might hit issue should you ever want to sell the house.

[David Mack]

Is the restriction on changing the appearance listed on the title to the property at the Land Registry? If it is not then it is unlikely that BWB/CRT can legally enforce the restriction. You can get a copy of your title from the Land Registry website for £3 (unless it's gone up lately).

The restriction was imposed by BWB, but has their 'interest' in the matter been transferred to CRT, or would you need to address this with the organisation which is now only interested in the Scottish waterways (and probably supremely uninterested in a house they once owned in England)?

The CRT website Estates page at 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/business-and-trade/estates suggests you should contact CRT at Ellesmere Port in the first instance.

 

Edited January 24 by David Mack

[MtB]

I'm quite sure you will get snared up in a world of pain if you approach CRT and ask. The other option is to ask mods here to kindly delete this thread, wait a few months/years for anyone at CRT who read it to forget, then just do it. The worst than can happen is you get some sort of enforcement notice telling you to put it back again (which of course relies on CRT having a record of current appearance, which they may well not have). It's a judgement of risk only you can make.

 

"Better to ask forgiveness than permission."

 

~ Grace Murray Hopper ~

 

 

 

 

 

[dmr]

Ah, 'Ive realised who and where you are. It is a dramatic spot.

CRT can be difficult if you upset them, and a lot of people to get sight of your house.

Phoning the standard CRT number can be variable 😀.

Maybe in the first instance speak to whoever was the business manager who you used to deal with (Richard Delves?) and see if he can come up with a name.

CRT appear to charge £90 to answer any serious questions, which is ok, but it will be bad news if they want to get solicitors incolved. 

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 The other option is to ask mods here to kindly delete this thread, wait a few months/years for anyone at CRT who read it to forget, then just do it. The worst than can happen is you get some sort of enforcement notice telling you to put it back again (which of course relies on CRT having a record of current appearance, which they may well not have). It's a judgement of risk only you can make.

 

"Better to ask forgiveness than permission."

 

~ Grace Murray Hopper ~

 

The problem with that approach is that it could as dmr pointed out, come back to bite you years or even decades later if you ever come to sell and the surveyor finds the discrepancy. You say "the worst that could happen..." but putting it back as it was could be very expensive. 

Edited January 25 by blackrose

[Jon57]

10 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Just " Doing it anyway " might have been an option before you announced it to the World on an internet forum!!

Captain's Tom's daughter might have some nice second hand building materials going cheap. 🤔

[magnetman]

10 hours ago, David Mack said:

Is the restriction on changing the appearance listed on the title to the property at the Land Registry? If it is not then it is unlikely that BWB/CRT can legally enforce the restriction. You can get a copy of your title from the Land Registry website for £3 (unless it's gone up lately).

The restriction was imposed by BWB, but has their 'interest' in the matter been transferred to CRT, or would you need to address this with the organisation which is now only interested in the Scottish waterways (and probably supremely uninterested in a house they once owned in England)?

The CRT website Estates page at 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/business-and-trade/estates suggests you should contact CRT at Ellesmere Port in the first instance.

 

The land registry site is excellent. You can even find out if the property has restrictive covenants without paying the fee. Just find the property and ask what detail is available. It won't tell you what the covenants are unless you pay the £3 but it will tell you if there are any. 

 

 

 

 

It seems enormously likely that the conservatory was added in breach of a restrictive covenant. 

 

What was it like before that? 

 

Conservatories are terrible. 

[Arthur Marshall]

Are you sure you need planning permission? I replaced the plastic roof of ours with a pitched lightweight solid one (metal but looks like the same tiles as the roof), no permission needed.

[David Mack]

21 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Are you sure you need planning permission? I replaced the plastic roof of ours with a pitched lightweight solid one (metal but looks like the same tiles as the roof), no permission needed.

And is it a listed building? If so it needs Listed Building Consent rather than Planning Permission. The process is pretty much the same but LBC applications are free.

[frangar]

If it helps the property I’m buying has previously had to ask CRT for permission about a couple of planning issues regarding extensions and building work as it’s next to the canal in a conservation area. The correspondence in the planning file from CRT has been of a very positive and helpful nature with no undue petty rules etc. This is not in your area however but don’t be too afraid to ask.
 

I have to say out of all the people I’ve had to deal with over the purchase of the property I’ve found CRT to be the most helpful and quickest to reply of all the official bodies….really can’t fault them so far.
 

Personally I’d start with the area office and go from there to see where you end up. Also talk to the local planning people…they often offer a pre planning advice session. They may or may not charge but it’s good to get the local planning on side. A friend of mine who has a grade 2 listed house was rather crapping it when the listing officer visited but the chap was really helpful and offered all sorts of advice. 

[billh]

CRT will be notified by the Local Authority when  a planning application  is made. I realize you need to know beforehand what their take is .

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, frangar said:

Also talk to the local planning people…they often offer a pre planning advice session. They may or may not charge but it’s good to get the local planning on side. A friend of mine who has a grade 2 listed house was rather crapping it when the listing officer visited but the chap was really helpful and offered all sorts of advice.

Good advice. But my local authority which used to offer a free planning advice service for simple queries has now gone to the other extreme. If you contact them they simply tell you to engage the services of a planning consultant. Since I too was dealing with a Grade 2 listed building I wanted to know what the authority actually would permit, not what an outside consultant thought they might agree to. So I didn't bother with the advice, just submitted an application anyway (it was free). Even then I couldn't speak to the Conservation Officer I directly, I had to go through the junior planning officer allocated to the case, who was clearly as frustrated with the situation as I was!

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

And is it a listed building? If so it needs Listed Building Consent rather than Planning Permission. The process is pretty much the same but LBC applications are free.

PP and LBC are not alternatives - they do different things and at times you need both.

[jonathanA]

1 hour ago, billh said:

CRT will be notified by the Local Authority when  a planning application  is made. I realize you need to know beforehand what their take is .

that is likely if the property adjoins the canal, certainly that is my experience.   CRT are usually only interested if the work affects or might affect the canal. 

 

checking the land registry entry as suggested would seem sensible then you would know whether CRT had any real influence rather than just being 'consulted'

 

CRT might try to send you down the 'works proposal' route (costs about £500) but i don't think that would help you as its usually about works in and around the canal (in my case building decking on my land to moor my boat against) if your conservatory is close to the canal they might want a works proposal to ensure that your not going end up with a digger in the canal or allow debris to fall into the canal, but I think that would be part of their response to the planning people. 

 

One name i can suggest is Louise Porter in the business boating surveyors department i think she would be in the right sort of area to advise if CRT would be interested in the appearance change or not. (PM for her details I'm not really happy posting them here, although I'm sure you can work out her email address as firstname.lastname @canalrivertrust.org.uk )

 

good luck

 

[MtB]

3 hours ago, jonathanA said:

checking the land registry entry as suggested would seem sensible then you would know whether CRT had any real influence rather than just being 'consulted'

 

 

A very good point. The OP's quiestion is nothing to do with PP or LBC. If the covenant between BW and the first owner is not listed at the LR, it seems unlikely that CRT have any influence. And vice versa.

 

I suspect it will be though, which is why the OP knows about it. Their solicitor will have drawn it to their attention when they bought the place.

 

 

 

[jonathanA]

especially as its one clause in a 12 page document apparently.... presume some of the other clauses must cover some of the other issues like working close to the canal itself etc... 

 

I think if i was the op i would submit the planning application, as they will need to do that anyway, if the planning people ok it they will either consult CRT and you get your answer or they won't and you can decide to go ahead anyway and hope CRT don't notice, or more responsibly enter a dialogue with CRT from a position of the 'planners are ok with this'  are you ? ...  

 

I'd expect a 12 page document to cover off how to resolve disputes or at least detail respective responsibilities, including those of BW and its successors. 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

50 minutes ago, MtB said:

I suspect it will be though, which is why the OP knows about it. Their solicitor will have drawn it to their attention when they bought the place.

 

 

 

All 12 pages

[MtB]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

All 12 pages

 

Yes and the solicitor will have only known about it because it is recorded at the LR!

 

 

[agg221]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Yes and the solicitor will have only known about it because it is recorded at the LR!

 

 

Not necessarily. Our house came with a folder full of paperwork, covering everything from manorial rights to wayleaves. Only a few parts of this appear on the Land Registry record, the rest having been retained when the house was first registered. When I bought the field next to the house it was unregistered and I did the conveyancing. Registering it was simple in principle but the paper trail created to do it was considerable. It required over an inch high stack of papers to comprehensively address the questions, which I still have, including copies of records dating back to the 1500s. BW is relatively modern!

 

Alec

[Creaking Gate]

Phone the freephone number, ask for the estates support in you're area - they will direct it to the right person.  I cannot see CRT objecting its a minor change, within keeping and in the end will not impact on the canal.

 

I'm assuming you have no listed structures near you and that you fall into the 'curtilage' of those?

 

[junior]

On 26/01/2024 at 11:09, Creaking Gate said:

Phone the freephone number, ask for the estates support in you're area - they will direct it to the right person.  I cannot see CRT objecting its a minor change, within keeping and in the end will not impact on the canal.

 

I'm assuming you have no listed structures near you and that you fall into the 'curtilage' of those?

 

Our house is on top of/or just to the side of a tunnel portal. As far as I am aware the tunnel portal is listed.

[jam]

If Cheshire West and Chester council are anything like Cheshire East, any application for planning within around a 1000 metres of the canal will involve the council planning to automatically inform CRT of the application and ask them for comments.