Longer Boats Up Norf

[dmr]

I only have this second/third hand, but I'm told a new/modified lock walkway on the Calder and Hebble is making things very difficult/impossible for 60 foot boats, and even tricky for 57's. This is 5 or 6 locks down from the top.

Perhaps of equal concern, when a boat got into serious difficulties (almost a sinking) CRT refused to help as their H&S policy does not allow them to help oversized boats.

 

A friend  is coming up that way soon so I will ask her to look out and report back.

 

Many posts on this forum advise that 60 foot boats can do the shorter canals by going diagonal so its a big concern if CRT are now opposed to this, especially with the recent rule change concerning over sized boats.

[MtB]

45 minutes ago, dmr said:

Perhaps of equal concern, when a boat got into serious difficulties (almost a sinking) CRT refused to help as their H&S policy does not allow them to help oversized boats.

 

Do you think this might be the reason for the modified walkway?

 

Specifically to stop 60ft 'oversized' boats using the canal? 

 

[Slow and Steady]

As a 60ft Northerner that's pretty annoying!

[mrsmelly]

60 foot and " oversized " is a bit of a misnomer innitt. Do they build boats that short? 

[Mad Harold]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Do you think this might be the reason for the modified walkway?

 

Specifically to stop 60ft 'oversized' boats using the canal? 

 

If this is the lock I am thinking of, (The Greenwood Lock) I remember sharing that lock going up, and the boat behind me got his tiller caught under the lock walkway.Can't remember who was on the paddles, but I do remember a lot of shouting and a bang like an explosion and this boat jumping up and bits of walkway coming down.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

As a 60ft Northerner that's pretty annoying!

 

Why ?

 

The maximum dimensions of the waterway has been published for many years, the fact that people want to 'push the envelope' does not mean that you should.

 

Presumably you knew the maximum recommended dimensions when you bought the boat.

 

 

[Hudds Lad]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Why ?

 

The maximum dimensions of the waterway has been published for many years, the fact that people want to 'push the envelope' does not mean that you should.

 

Presumably you knew the maximum recommended dimensions when you bought the boat.

 

 

 

But have they not already set a precedent down south where if your boat is the wrong dimensions they just rebuild the bridgeholes for you?

 

Levelling up, my harris 🤪

[dmr]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Why ?

 

The maximum dimensions of the waterway has been published for many years, the fact that people want to 'push the envelope' does not mean that you should.

 

Presumably you knew the maximum recommended dimensions when you bought the boat.

 

 

 

But surely the maximum dimensions are worse case and all together?, A 60 foot x 14 foot wont fit because it exceeds the maximum dimensions, but a 60 foot x 7 foot should be fine.  

For some reason CRT have assigned a maximum of 70 foot to several canals even though they can and do take 71' 6" working boats. If CRT arbitrarily enforce their arbitrary dimension then a lot of boats will be excluded.  We are too deep to do the Llangollen, but have done it with no problems.

 

If we don't stand up for this the future will be paddleboards only.

33 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

If this is the lock I am thinking of, (The Greenwood Lock) I remember sharing that lock going up, and the boat behind me got his tiller caught under the lock walkway.Can't remember who was on the paddles, but I do remember a lot of shouting and a bang like an explosion and this boat jumping up and bits of walkway coming down.

 

I will try to find out. The boater that reported this has never done the C&H before so I need to find out if this is a new, modified, or existing walkway.CRT rRefusing to help is a big worry.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

If we don't stand up for this the future will be paddleboards only.

 

It's not a paddleboard, it's a kayak with a tug deck ...

[PeterScott]

34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The maximum dimensions of the waterway has been published for many years, ...

... but sadly not consistently.

 

There was an enthusiasm for defining this by 'pinchpoints', and for the C+H they took a plan-view - what the nice MrGoogle would see from a satellite.

 

C+H lock length is 57'6" in old money, and the bottom gate walkways can intrude into the lock chamber by four foot. Length of lock is therefore 53'6" for the pinchpoint document...

 

We laughted at them, and on this occasion the document wasn't published in that form.

 

It is a three-dimensional problem, though.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

23 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

But surely the maximum dimensions are worse case and all together?, A 60 foot x 14 foot wont fit because it exceeds the maximum dimensions, but a 60 foot x 7 foot should be fine.  

For some reason CRT have assigned a maximum of 70 foot to several canals even though they can and do take 71' 6" working boats. If CRT arbitrarily enforce their arbitrary dimension then a lot of boats will be excluded.  We are too deep to do the Llangollen, but have done it with no problems.

 

If we don't stand up for this the future will be paddleboards only.

 

I will try to find out. The boater that reported this has never done the C&H before so I need to find out if this is a new, modified, or existing walkway.CRT rRefusing to help is a big worry.

Get in touch with the HNBS, they’ll be interested to hear CRT are (if they are) introducing their own dimensions. 
It’s something I’m sure they will object to and take issue with. See what they have to say. 
You’ll have to be specific about the 71’ 6” locks and not quote hearsay. 
 

And get in touch with the NBTA and tell them your rights to travel are being restricted. 👍

 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

And get in touch with the NBTA and tell them your rights to travel are being restricted. 👍

 

They will say "GOOD! The more restrictions on travelling the better", surely. 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Nope

[Midnight]

I think this refers to Elland Lock which had a second walkway added inside the bottom gates a few years ago. I haven't heard of any issues with 60ft boats but it's a bit tight for us at 57ft and there's evidence of boat damage to the walkway. Extreme care required especially if ascending. I believe there's now an issue with a sink hole and it's working on one gate which may have made it more difficult. On many of the Calder locks we usually have to open the opposite gate then swing the bows across. I'll ask around but I haven't heard of any recent changes anywhere else and Greenwood lock is one of the longest ones so wouldn't be an issue. 

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

 

But surely the maximum dimensions are worse case and all together?, A 60 foot x 14 foot wont fit because it exceeds the maximum dimensions, but a 60 foot x 7 foot should be fine.  

For some reason CRT have assigned a maximum of 70 foot to several canals even though they can and do take 71' 6" working boats. If CRT arbitrarily enforce their arbitrary dimension then a lot of boats will be excluded.  We are too deep to do the Llangollen, but have done it with no problems.

 

If we don't stand up for this the future will be paddleboards only.

 

I will try to find out. The boater that reported this has never done the C&H before so I need to find out if this is a new, modified, or existing walkway.CRT rRefusing to help is a big worry.

 

I agree with your point that the CRT maximum craft dimensions are only truly meaningful if applied in combination but it only follows that you may fit if one or more but not all dimensions are exceeded. There certainly isn't a "should" about it.

 

The passage of 71' 6" working boats through 70' locks is a case in point. They fit only because they aren't full width over the full length and when descending a lock it's often necessary to need to put the curved stern right back into the curve of the cill and push the boat right over to one side to swing a gate past the bow using the space made available by the fact the boat has a pointy front end. Similarly when ascending a lock the bow can oversail the cill by probably about 1' 6". There is no arbitrary rule setting in play.

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[IanD]

11 hours ago, dmr said:

I only have this second/third hand, but I'm told a new/modified lock walkway on the Calder and Hebble is making things very difficult/impossible for 60 foot boats, and even tricky for 57's. This is 5 or 6 locks down from the top.

Perhaps of equal concern, when a boat got into serious difficulties (almost a sinking) CRT refused to help as their H&S policy does not allow them to help oversized boats.

 

A friend  is coming up that way soon so I will ask her to look out and report back.

 

Many posts on this forum advise that 60 foot boats can do the shorter canals by going diagonal so its a big concern if CRT are now opposed to this, especially with the recent rule change concerning over sized boats.

 

If this is a problem only when 2 boats are sharing the lock then a single 60' boat -- with the usual provisos about taking care, fitting diagonally/behind the gate, maybe going down backwards -- should still be OK.

 

I certainly hope so since I'm currently having a 60' boat built on the assumption that it can get through the shortest locks (Salterhebble) -- if CART changes to a walkway mean this is no longer the case I'll be *very* p*ssed off... 😞

 

It would obviously be helpful if somebody could provide some first-hand information about this instead of second/third hand... 😉

[David Mack]

19 hours ago, dmr said:

For some reason CRT have assigned a maximum of 70 foot to several canals even though they can and do take 71' 6" working boats. If CRT arbitrarily enforce their arbitrary dimension then a lot of boats will be excluded. 

Not only that, but CRT have also defined boat length as including fenders and rudders which project beyond the ends of the hull itself. But it has always been necessary to put the rudder over and lift fenders to get 71'6" (hull length) boats through certain locks. If such locks are to be limited to boats 70' long including rudders and fenders, that would represent a significant reduction in the maximum boat length for much of the system.

[enigmatic]

If they're adding new walkways, why don't they stick them on the other side of the gate? Still possible to operate a Hebble spike from there anyway.

[David Mack]

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

If they're adding new walkways, why don't they stick them on the other side of the gate? Still possible to operate a Hebble spike from there anyway.

Because the walkway would then overhang into the lock width when the gate is open, which on shallower locks, could block boats from getting in or out of the lock.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Because the walkway would then overhang into the lock width when the gate is open, which on shallower locks, could block boats from getting in or out of the lock.

 

On the K&A, the bottom gates on lock by Crofton Pumping Station have hinged walkways across them, so the walkway just lifts up when a boat gets caught under it.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Because the walkway would then overhang into the lock width when the gate is open, which on shallower locks, could block boats from getting in or out of the lock.

Surely the C&H locks are far too deep for this to be a problem, with the bottom gates open the walkways will be something like 8' or so above water level?

[PeterF]

The walkway on the inside of the lower gates at Elland lock has been there as long as I have moored on the C&H which was 2006 as far as I can recall. However, I left the C&H a couple of years a go so not sure if there has been any mods since then. The locals cross that lock frequently and just having the upper one as a walkway left them without a crossing for a few minutes occasionally. The walkway would make it more difficult for a long wide beam or pair of narrowboats. It should be less of an issue for a single long narrowboat. As far as I recall on the C&H locks going up, you could usually move the boat forward as the level cleared the cill so that the stern then came out from under the walkway and vice versa for going down.

 

After mooring on the C&H for close to 15 years, the boat we had built last year was 58ft in case we ventured back again.

[nb Innisfree]

I once phoned the C&H office to ask if a 60' nb would fit, "56' 6" is the max" was the reply, tried asking if it could fit diagonally but still the same reply, so I asked if 60 footers actually went through, "oh yes". I decided to go and see and sure enough a 60' nb got through the shortest lock but had issues with the tiller bar under the walkway, solved by removing the tiller!

Never got around to taking Innisfree through but she had wheel steering so should have been no probs. 

[Guest]

Isnt it now part of CRT licence conditions that boaters dont use their boats on waterways outside their stated waterways dimensions?

 

Or was that proposal never included/dropped or more likely just not enforced.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[Midnight]

1 hour ago, PeterF said:

The walkway on the inside of the lower gates at Elland lock has been there as long as I have moored on the C&H which was 2006 as far as I can recall.

There was only the top gates walkway from when we arrived in 2010 to about 2018/19. The 'new' one has took a hammering and would have been better for all if it had been on the outside. Plenty of height so not a hazard to boats entering and leaving.