phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Cheshire cat]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Does anyone not expect that very soon there will be 'duty' added to the electricity used to charge vehicles - "they" will somehow have to make up for the lost duty from petroleum fuels.

I have just been chatting with my brother about this. He has a Nissan EV200. At the moment Octopus pay him to charge it up overnight.

 

I can't see how they would determine you were using electricity to charge a vehicle

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Cheshire cat said:

I can't see how they would determine you were using electricity to charge a vehicle

Neither can I, but 'a need' is the Mother of invention.

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I have just been chatting with my brother about this. He has a Nissan EV200. At the moment Octopus pay him to charge it up overnight.

 

I can't see how they would determine you were using electricity to charge a vehicle

Different circuit? 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, peterboat said:

Different circuit? 

But what is to stop you just using a standard 3-pin 13a plug (extension lead thru the window) ?

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I can't see how they would determine you were using electricity to charge a vehicle

 

They can't.  So you'll pay the same rate as you do for the electric water heating they are mandating.  Just don't expect it to be the same price as it is now!

 

Realistically, it will go on VED in the future - you'll pay a much higher "road tax" when there are less ICE vehicles around - it won't remain free or cheap for EVs once they pass a certain percentage of vehicles on the road.

[magnetman]

Camera based road usage tax. 

 

That makes sense plus insurance based on the feedback from the vehicle. I think Tesla already do this but they are not a long term player. 

 

As for finding out how people are charging the batteries that is where the swappable batteries come in. They have their own modems and GPS units in them and if you are caught charging one up outside of a Registered Dealer of Controlled Electric you are forced to wear a face mask for a month. 

[Sea Dog]

22 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I actually think that they couldn't care less diesel will be to expensive...

I don't think it will. I think the the haulage industry is going to be run on diesel for quite some time to come.

[Cheshire cat]

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

They can't.  So you'll pay the same rate as you do for the electric water heating they are mandating.  Just don't expect it to be the same price as it is now!

 

Realistically, it will go on VED in the future - you'll pay a much higher "road tax" when there are less ICE vehicles around - it won't remain free or cheap for EVs once they pass a certain percentage of vehicles on the road.

Obvious solution. Milk it while you can.

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, Sea Dog said:

I don't think it will. I think the the haulage industry is going to be run on diesel for quite some time to come.

43 years. 

[peterboat]

26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But what is to stop you just using a standard 3-pin 13a plug (extension lead thru the window) ?

Expected draw on the circuit? Remember they are 32 amp circuits and charge full blast until full 

[Cheshire cat]

No. You can charge on a 13 amp plug. Obviously it takes a lot longer

[ditchcrawler]

10 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

No. You can charge on a 13 amp plug. Obviously it takes a lot longer

That is how next door does his Range Rover. Anther friend makes a profit from visiting National Trust gardens in his Tesla, free charging points so he gets home with more power than he had when he left 

[Alan de Enfield]

37 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Expected draw on the circuit? Remember they are 32 amp circuits and charge full blast until full 

I have a 3-phase supply and several 32a sockets around the place.

We had one built into the kitchen ceiling to supply the 'plate warmer and hot box', but I understood that you could charge an EV overnight from a standard 13a socket.

 

That being the case, how can the Wh used for charging a car be differentiated from the normal domestic usage ?

[Mike Todd]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And to get to Torksey in the 1st place you are having to do 20 miles 'ish on the Tidal Trent

Ah but you could do the equivalent of what was done in earlier times with cars - turn the engine off and coast downhill. 

[Machpoint005]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Does anyone not expect that very soon there will be 'duty' added to the electricity used to charge vehicles - "they" will somehow have to make up for the lost duty from petroleum fuels.

 

Not necessary - just introduce road pricing (think M6 Toll, but everywhere)

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

That is how next door does his Range Rover. Anther friend makes a profit from visiting National Trust gardens in his Tesla, free charging points so he gets home with more power energy than he had when he left 

 

Pedantry, I know, but this is a technical discussion.

 

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have a 3-phase supply and several 32a sockets around the place.

We had one built into the kitchen ceiling to supply the 'plate warmer and hot box', but I understood that you could charge an EV overnight from a standard 13a socket.

 

That being the case, how can the Wh used for charging a car be differentiated from the normal domestic usage ?

Most dont charge from granny cables it's an EV term, Grant's available for EV charging points it allows you to preheat/cool down the car before journeys, the daughter has one for her Ampera, jan has one for her leaf and Neil has one for his Tesla which he rarely uses because he has free supercharging for life, I am sure it can be monitored separately.  0

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Not necessary - just introduce road pricing (think M6 Toll, but everywhere)

 

Pedantry, I know, but this is a technical discussion.

 

I think black boxes and charging for use will be the answer 

[transplant]

12 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I don't own a car at the moment, so any driving I do is of hire cars mainly. Hence this is a lack of standardisation that vexes me!

Look for an arrow on the gauge. It's not universal but it is pretty common.

[Man 'o Kent]

On the matter of Hydrogen as a fuel derived via wind farms.

The energy required to crack water is not insignificant.

The Hydrogen atom is very, very small, so small indeed that it can diffuse through solid metal.

Because of this feeding Hydrogen through the existing or even specially laid pipes would be at least wasteful and even dangerous. Natural gas is bad enough, think treacle and water.

The only other option is cyrogenic liquification of the gas if transport is required thus adding an extra cost in both cash and wasted energy. 

There may be a case for cracking plant attached to the power stations to provide a backup for when the wind don't blow or there is exceptional demand.

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Man 'o Kent said:

On the matter of Hydrogen as a fuel derived via wind farms.

The energy required to crack water is not insignificant.

The Hydrogen atom is very, very small, so small indeed that it can diffuse through solid metal.

Because of this feeding Hydrogen through the existing or even specially laid pipes would be at least wasteful and even dangerous. Natural gas is bad enough, think treacle and water.

The only other option is cyrogenic liquification of the gas if transport is required thus adding an extra cost in both cash and wasted energy. 

There may be a case for cracking plant attached to the power stations to provide a backup for when the wind don't blow or there is exceptional demand.

They are already doing this in Scotland the plant to make hydrogen and then use it to make electricity 

[magpie patrick]

11 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

I have just been chatting with my brother about this. He has a Nissan EV200. At the moment Octopus pay him to charge it up overnight.

 

I can't see how they would determine you were using electricity to charge a vehicle

An HDMI video lead can tell the  DVD player at one end it is fastened to a DVD recorder at the other rather than to a television - I think the same technology will apply to car charging leads.

[rgreg]

9 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Not necessary - just introduce road pricing (think M6 Toll, but everywhere)

 

Pedantry, I know, but this is a technical discussion.

 

https://mol.im/a/8951969

[magpie patrick]

22 minutes ago, rgreg said:

https://mol.im/a/8951969

Same thing in the Times this morning - I won't post a link as the Times have a paywall

 

In said times column the comments include the usual "shafting the motorist" with no regard to the fact the electricity is both tax free and considerably cheaper 

 

I still think a smart charging lead will end up playing a role. 

 

On another note - cars have been a concern of urban planners since the 1950's, and the concern wasn't emissions. I hope that electric vehicles don't lead to a culture shift where the bus and the bike are abandoned - we'd have to rebuild our town centres. (ref: Colin Buchanan, Traffic in Towns)

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Not necessary - just introduce road pricing (think M6 Toll, but everywhere)

 

Pedantry, I know, but this is a technical discussion.

 

Strange you should say that (inside knowledge ?)

 

 

 

Rishi Sunak considers plan to charge motorists for every mile they drive on Britain's roads to fill £40billion tax hole left by the switch to electric cars

• The Chancellor is reportedly 'very interested' in the idea of national road pricing
• Scheme was dropped by Labour in 2007 due to uproar over £1.50 a mile charge
• Currently road charges limited to areas such as M6 Toll and Dartford Crossing 

Rishi Sunak is considering plans to charge motorists for every mile they drive on Britain's roads to fill a £40billion tax hole left by a push to electric cars, according to reports.

The Chancellor is reportedly 'very interested' in the idea of a national road pricing scheme - which would steer motorists into a new 'pay-as-you-drive' type system. 

A similar type of scheme was dramatically shelved by Labour in 2007 amid uproar that drivers could be charged up to £1.50 a mile.

 

But a national scheme is now being considered amid fears a switch to electric vehicles will leave a massive tax shortfall from the loss of key revenue raisers such as Fuel Duty and Vehicle Excise Duty, according to the Times.

 

It comes amid reports Boris Johnson wants to accelerate his green plans - including bringing forward a ban on the sale of petrol and diesel cars to 2030.

 

But that could mean an end to a number of big tax revenues, such as VAT on fuel - which currently raises around £5.7billion-a-year

It could also mean an end to Fuel Duty, currently charged at 57.95p a litre on petrol and diesel vehicles, and which is on course to raise £27.5billion this financial year. 

Meanwhile, Vehicle excise duty (VED) - which is charged on the purchase of cars based on their emission levels - is expected to raise £7.1billion.  

A government source reportedly told the Times that the Treasury had analysed potential options for a national road pricing scheme.

However the source said such a scheme was not 'imminent'.

A similar plan was shelved by Labour ministers in 2007 amid fears drivers would be billed up to £1.50 a mile.

A petition was signed by 1.8million motorists opposing the idea.

 

 

 

Presumably it would be only EV's paying the 'mileage charge' as ICE would still be paying VED, Fuel Duty and Fuel VAT

It will only be the SALES of new ICE cars that are banned so 13,000,000 (?) ICE engined vehicles will presumably still be using the roads.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[roland elsdon]

I suspect an ownership tax will re emerge. Ie ved. It will be much higher to deal with the congestion pollution and revenue issue.

Currently in the uk  we pay the same ved on our diesel vehicle as on our glycogen powered vehicles. ( which last year did three times the distance ) .

 

our stranded camper in Australia pays a huge amount of ved compared to what it would here.

 

Ownership/pollution/ location / value equation will be a complicated but lucrative formula. Road pricing is too equitable.

[Bacchus]

By the mile charging is another iniquitous tax on the North!

 

You can commute forty miles to work in Yorkshire in the time it takes to drive a mile in Greater London!