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magpie patrick

phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

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I realise there are already several threads running but I just have a simple query

 

The proposed phasing out is stages as follows

 

2025 - all new craft capable of conversion

2035 - all new craft will have carbon free propulsion 

2050 - ALL craft will have carbon free propulsion

 

Is this programme (rather than the general principle) a UK wide thing or an EU wide thing - are Irish and French waterways running to the same timetable? 

 

Does the USA have any equivalent? 

 

(once we've dealt with the EU and USA I'm running out of leisure waterways that fall within my field of interest - perhaps I would be able to rent a coal fired behemoth on the Dniepr... ;) ) 

Edited by magpie patrick

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I think you mean 2050  - carbon neutral 

 

I think the UK is attempting to  lead the world in these matters 

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9 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

2050 - ALL craft will have carbon propulsion

 

:help::o:banned::blink:

1 minute ago, robtheplod said:

I think the 2050 entry might need adjusting unless we are having a complete change of direction... :)

Thank you! Now amended...  [sheepish emoji needed...]

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39 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Is this programme (rather than the general principle) a UK wide thing or an EU wide thing - are Irish and French waterways running to the same timetable?

Think yourself lucky if UK is the smallest unit. I'm currently supporting Healthcare where Scotland, Ireland and Wales are "devolved". With frequent shouts of "if that's the way England is going it must be wrong"

 

Having driven across a few state lines in the US where the traffic laws change at 60 MPH, I look forward to a sign somewhere on Whixall Moss "Engage electric drive NOW (or face penalties)"

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45 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

I realise there are already several threads running but I just have a simple query

 

The proposed phasing out is stages as follows

 

2025 - all new craft capable of conversion

2035 - all new craft will have carbon free propulsion 

2050 - ALL craft will have carbon free propulsion

 

Is this programme (rather than the general principle) a UK wide thing or an EU wide thing - are Irish and French waterways running to the same timetable? 

 

Does the USA have any equivalent? 

 

(once we've dealt with the EU and USA I'm running out of leisure waterways that fall within my field of interest - perhaps I would be able to rent a coal fired behemoth on the Dniepr... ;) ) 

 

As far as I am aware it is a worldwide (USA ? who knows) that all transport should be 'zero emission' by 2050 and everyone signed up to it at one of the 'meetings'.

The EU is certainly heading that way for road transport and have similar time lines to us, but I have never seen any 'marine' plans except for the UK.

 

The UK plan follows from an IMO meeting but we have gone further than the agreed 50% to be at the forefront and reap the benefits.

 

In April 2018, the UK was a leading voice in the negotiations at the International Maritime Organization, resulting in the first ever Greenhouse Gas Strategy for the sector, agreeing a target of reducing emissions by at least 50% by 2050, and phasing them out entirely as soon as possible this century. The Clean Maritime Plan makes the UK one of the first countries since the agreement of that Strategy to publish our National Action Plan. The Plan clearly demonstrates our ambition and commitment to tackling this important issue, at this pivotal moment for the future of the maritime sector. A global transition to clean shipping is underway. This route map identifies ways to tackle air pollutants and greenhouse gas emissions in parallel while securing clean growth opportunities for the UK. Research undertaken for the Government suggests that the global market for maritime emission reduction technologies could reach $15 billion per year by 2050, potentially resulting in economic benefits to the UK of $690 million per year by the middle of the century.

 

By 2050, we want zero emission shipping to be commonplace globally. We want the UK to have taken a proactive role in leading this transition, to be seen globally as a role model, and to have successfully captured a significant share of the economic, environmental and health benefits that will follow.

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27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As far as I am aware it is a worldwide (USA ? who knows) ....

All very useful Alan (the whole post, not just the quoted bit)

 

31 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Having driven across a few state lines in the US where the traffic laws change at 60 MPH, I look forward to a sign somewhere on Whixall Moss "Engage electric drive NOW (or face penalties)"

The Llangollen crosses the border in three places - if Wales goes for full independence it will be interesting!

 

Carbon zero going towards Hurleston is easy though, just push the boat into the channel and keep the long pole handy... ;) 

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13 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

All very useful Alan (the whole post, not just the quoted bit)

The EU 'vehicle emission reduction' is covered here :

 

 

On 17 April 2019, the European Parliament and the Council adopted Regulation (EU) 2019/631 setting CO2 emission performance standards for new passenger cars and for new vans in the EU. This Regulation started applying on 1 January 2020, replacing and repealing Regulations (EC) 443/2009 (cars) and (EU) 510/2011 (vans).

The new Regulation maintains the targets for 2020, which were set out in the former Regulations. It adds new targets that apply from 2025 and 2030.

The Regulation also includes a mechanism to incentivise the uptake of zero- and low-emission vehicles, in a technology-neutral way.

 

The new Regulation will:

  • contribute to the achievement of the EU's commitments under the Paris Agreement,
  • reduce fuel consumption costs for consumers,
  • strengthen the competitiveness of EU automotive industry and stimulate employment.

Expected benefits include

  • a 23% reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from road transport in 2030 compared to 2005. This will support Member States in meeting their national targets under the Effort Sharing Regulation;
  • savings for consumers of around €1,100 over the lifetime of an average new car bought in 2030 and nearly €4,000 for an average new van;
  • positive impacts on employment across the overall economy, with around 60,000 jobs created by 2030 and up to 80,000 if batteries are produced in the EU;
  • a smooth and gradual transition towards zero-emission mobility allowing for sufficient time to provide for an adequate reskilling and reallocation of workers in the automotive sector;
  • a signal for investors in refuelling and recharging infrastructure, which will ensure that the enabling conditions for deploying zero- and low-emission vehicles are fulfilled.

 

 

 

Here is the EU policy on Maritime emissions

 

https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/shipping_en

 

Whilst the UK plans include 'inland waterways' as well as maritime waters, the EU (at first glance) seems to refer to 'big maritime boats' only.

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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12 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

The Llangollen crosses the border in three places - if Wales goes for full independence it will be interesting!

Especially if Wales then joined the EU. Better get your paperwork ready, or there would be a really big VAT bill when you export and import a boat across six border crossings on a trip. 😱

Jen

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

I think the UK is attempting to  lead the world in these matters 

Everything we attempt at the moment is going to be "World Beating". That mantra may, of course, now exit along with Mr Cummings...

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I think the change will be quicker than the dates indicated, as more wind turbines come on line instead of turning them off when not needed the plan is to create clean hydrogen instead. Clean hydrogen can be used for many things but I think the major aim for it is to power gas powered electric power stations when extra energy is needed, this does away with fossil fuels so all electric will be clean energy,

I think by 2030 we will live in a different world altogether

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6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

I think by 2030 we will live in a different world altogether

Possibly true, but we'll either still be using huge quantities of hydrocarbons or have a vastly lower population: our world as we know it is insupportable without them, electrified or otherwise. The genie came out of the bottle with the industrial revolution, and it won't go back in. That's not to deny climate change or say we should not take action incidentally, and electrification is probably a step in the right direction. Producing and transporting vast quantities of hydrogen though? Hmm.

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In a years time the electric transit will be out along with a multitude of other electric vans, I am surprised at the speed of change planned from ICE.

Another plan which I read yesterday was a 20% increase annually on ICE car tax I think that would do the trick as well, We have these discussions all the time on here and we end up with for and against, the reality is though its going to happen because the law says it will, IanD is right on the nail when he says people better start planning for it. Me, I have already done it boat is electric drive and it works for me, Finesse 9 out of the next 10 boats electric drive things are changing already

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Soon be time the to start selling diesel gennies for boats to charge the batteries of their carbon neutral propulsion device? I haven't read the legislation so does it say ice generaters are also banned? 

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8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

In a years time the electric transit will be out along with a multitude of other electric vans, I am surprised at the speed of change planned from ICE.

Vans are an obvious one for electric. Some are used for regular delivery runs out to known distances, others by trades people within a geographical area and can be charged on site while they work. Almost all do high mileages and are depreciated over a relatively short number of years. All ideal for electric drive.

Despite having seen many, it still surprises me how fast a transition can take place once a tipping point is reached. CRT computer monitors disappeared over only a couple of years once the price of LCD displays reached a certain point. LED lights a decade ago were only used by a few weirdos like boat owners! Now they are everywhere, in homes, businesses and elsewhere. Most street lights round here are LED. A mixture of legislation, technical improvements and mass production scaling has made most other lighting forms niche. Vehicles have the same driving forces at work.

 

7 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

When I'm cremated will I be zero emission ?

With wind power made hydrogen, yes. There is also the chipped and composted option of course, or land fill in a graveyard.

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Surely most boats are convertible already.

My 1936 boat has plenty of room in the engine room for batteries especially with the big tanks removed, and even the modern stuff has  room.

What will be an issue is continuous residential use without a hook up.

The only problem would be if I I carried on getting the dumb questions about what I am carrying I would have answer “it’s an ion boat” 

Am I going to convert my boat no. But a converted electric butty would be a fine thing.

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1 hour ago, roland elsdon said:

But a converted electric butty would be a fine thing.

And with an electric motor in the ellum it wouldn't need the giveaway hydraulic hoses of other motorised butties.

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1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

How about this way?

 

Linky to The Engineer

 

Nice. Quite a small amount though, even in the final phase.

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Aligns with the 2050 Plan (Post #13)

 

(You know, the one the naysayers say will not happen)

 I'm certainly not a naysayer, I just don't think hydrogen is the answer, many attractions though it has. It might feature in some small measure, we've had hydrogen buses and fuel cells have advantages, but it's transport presents a huge volumetric issue and I can't see the gas main having sufficient capacity for anything on a mass scale. It takes a huge amount of energy to make it too and, even then, currently it's produced from fossil fuels anyway. Great for lowering local pollution levels though, but then again so is electricity. Good, but I'm thinking "no cigar" - which is probably on the hydrogen warning signs anyway... ;)

 

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Just now, Sea Dog said:

I'm certainly not a naysayer,

I was not specifically referring to you, nor, specifically to the hydrogen plans, more to the 'general population'.

 

I have been posting about the 2050 marine plans for 2 or 3 years and until very recently it has been poo-pood as 'another dream, it'll just go away, don't worry about it'.

 

Finally, now inland boat manufacturers are starting to implement it, and few people on the forum are starting to perk-up, look, listen and accept change is really happening.

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20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And with an electric motor in the ellum it wouldn't need the giveaway hydraulic hoses of other motorised butties.

Just wires ?

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

I was not specifically referring to you, nor, specifically to the hydrogen plans, more to the 'general population'.

 

I have been posting about the 2050 marine plans for 2 or 3 years and until very recently it has been poo-pood as 'another dream, it'll just go away, don't worry about it'.

 

Finally, now inland boat manufacturers are starting to implement it, and few people on the forum are starting to perk-up, look, listen and accept change is really happening.

I didn't think you were referring to me Alan, but I recognised that my doubts might make me look like one!

 

I love the idea, I'm glad we've set targets, but I don't yet see a clear way to meet them is all. Every little helps though, and the developments are exciting.

 

I've thought for years that our tiny island is a real candidate for electrification, so the population can go about their daily lives emission free and the government, being in the best position to make the biggest difference, can decide how best to invest, set policy and make informed decisions regarding power generation. 

 

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