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phasing out of fossil fuels - programme


magpie patrick

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The Ffrwd Canal

 

image.jpeg.91dc2cb44d886b25481a67490196c377.jpeg

 

All this was, by the 1760s at least, in the hands of a family called Griffiths, who lived at Ffrwd itself. The few documents that I can find give an impression of a ‘parish gentry’ family who, in an era of large estates and great landowners, were undergoing a gentle decline from gentry to farmers: the inclusion of a ‘moiety’ of the Gyfynys in their possessions suggests a possible link with the long-departed Powells through marriage. Other than that there is little to go on, particularly as the family largely escaped Alfred Palmer’s attentions. A John Griffiths of Broughton is, however, noted on the voters’ list of freeholders for Wrexham parish in 1741. Another member of the family was John Griffiths, gentleman, who in 1765 married a woman called Margaret Jones, daughter of Richard Jones of Acton, and whose marriage settlement mentioned much of the estate already described.

By this time the land at the Ffrwd was of great interest to the local coalmasters: Griffiths granted a variety of leases to the Kyrke family in the 1790s, and pits were sunk on several parts of the estate. The main pits seem to have been at Coed y Brain, a field just within Gwersyllt parish and curving alongside the route of the abortive Ffrwd canal as it ran to its terminus, and at Cae Gwydd (it appears to be the Coed y Brain pit that is shown in the artist Edward Pugh’s painting of the Ffrwd canal, with Caergwrle castle appearing in the background). Other, earlier workings on the estate were located in the wooded land immediately behind Ffrwd farm and known as “the Yord”. It was here that the basin of the canal was dug, and despite its rapid abandonment there are still remnants of canal water in the vicinity, although most of the line of the canal was later occupied by a railway branch. This also closed long ago along with the collieries it served.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, Cheshire cat said:

Is lithium available in huge quantities and what is the process by which it is brought to a usable state? I'm just thinking about the embodied carbon.

 

At the moment we're only running the engine for 250 hours a year. The numbers are miniscule compared with the private car market. I suspect boats will be provided some "legacy heritage" status as are old cars today where low emission zones have been created.

Cornwall has plenty apparently so a consortium says, they plan on mining it to make us self sufficient, it's in the old tin mines if I remember rightly 

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So to get it out of the tin mines they'll have to install pumps to pump the water out. Presumably, the pumps will run on wind power and will also have used the same source of power to smelt the ore that the metal for the pumps comes from. Or perhaps we'll just buy them in from China and then we can blame them for their CO2 emissions. Or perhaps we can use a mini reactor in which case there's going to be a requirement for lots of cement........

 

There's then the problem of transporting the Lithium ore to where it is going to be made into batteries. 

And so it goes on.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't need to happen but to pretend it will be zero carbon is just wrong. 

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32 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

It's my topic and you all answered my actual query in the first few posts so I don't feel any shame in taking this :offtopic:

 

when were we last actually carbon zero? The Somerset Coalfield was producing 100,000 tonnes of coal a year before the end of the 17th Century - to put that in perspective it's about the total the Coal Canal was carrying in it's busier years 200 years later. 

 

I'm not pretending it gets anywhere near existing fossil fuel use/CO2 emmissions, but zero it is not, and the Somerset Coalfield was not the only coalfield on this planet producing coal 400 years ago.  

I would suggest we have never been carbon zero, as an example it is understood that by the time Stonehenge was completed we had felled something like 90% of the forest cover.

It's the scale that's the issue, the carbon cycle is elastic in its ability to recycle free carbon, the problem is we are not sure exactly how elastic

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2 hours ago, MartynG said:

What a boring word it would be if the only permitted activities have to be essential for society to function.

But I think he is right

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd suggest that many 'leisure boaters' cover far more miles than many CCers.

 

 

Probably (in normal times) we do around 1000 -1500 miles per Summer.

This year we have only done 770 miles, its normally between 1300 and 1400

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10 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

So to get it out of the tin mines they'll have to install pumps to pump the water out. Presumably, the pumps will run on wind power and will also have used the same source of power to smelt the ore that the metal for the pumps comes from. Or perhaps we'll just buy them in from China and then we can blame them for their CO2 emissions. Or perhaps we can use a mini reactor in which case there's going to be a requirement for lots of cement........

 

There's then the problem of transporting the Lithium ore to where it is going to be made into batteries. 

And so it goes on.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't need to happen but to pretend it will be zero carbon is just wrong. 

Electric to smelt steel is happening already electric lorries and trains are a reality, I think Cornwall is already 100% renewable for electricity it just seems to be happening because it's the cheapest way to make electricity, excess electricity can make hydrogen and that can make clean electricity on less windy sunny days 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd suggest that many 'leisure boaters' cover far more miles than many CCers.

 

 

Probably (in normal times) we do around 1000 -1500 miles per Summer.

This year we have only done 770 miles, its normally between 1300 and 1400

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I'm not denying the technology exists. I'm just saying anyone who thinks it is zero carbon is going to be disappointed.

 

Just watched this vid Battery repair for a Nissan Leaf Looks easy enough if you've got access to the right kit. Gives a whole new meaning to PPE too. ?

I know the series one Leaf is old tech but 300Kg of batteries is a lot of weight to swap out at your local charging station.

Looks like a non viable option to me. 

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1 minute ago, Cheshire cat said:

I'm not denying the technology exists. I'm just saying anyone who thinks it is zero carbon is going to be disappointed.

 

Just watched this vid Battery repair for a Nissan Leaf Looks easy enough if you've got access to the right kit. Gives a whole new meaning to PPE too. ?

I know the series one Leaf is old tech but 300Kg of batteries is a lot of weight to swap out at your local charging station.

Looks like a non viable option to me. 

It is a waste of time especially as all you have to is plug in whilst asleep ? I watched a repair the other week ccost 500 squids took 3 hours replacement of a dodgy module 

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

Battery butty for the big rivers? 

 

Large floating battery bank, waterproof connections and strap it to the boat.  Charging/hire stations at a few points on the river.

Cross straps, one for positive, one for negative on to insulated towing dollies. Have to use insulated wire rope though, or they'll short as they cross. ?

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Even though battery swapping seems attractive for cars (speed compared to recharging) nobody has been able to find a way to make it work, either technically or commercially.

 

Boats don't need to charge anything like so fast so the main driver for this is gone.

 

There's no technical barrier to providing charging points at boatyards/marinas/water points and maybe not even a big commercial barrier, what's really lacking is the foresight and the will to make it happen in both CART and the government.

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2 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

Time to deploy the oars ?

Actually, thinking about it the Vikings managed to get up to Nottingham without the help of Beta Marine

The Vikings winter camp in 873 874AD was in Repton, overlooking the then course of the River Trent, so they got quite a bit further than Nottingham. Repton is only a mile from the T&M at Willington and is well worth a visit, if you are passing on a boat.

Jen

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17 minutes ago, IanD said:

Even though battery swapping seems attractive for cars (speed compared to recharging) nobody has been able to find a way to make it work, either technically or commercially.

 

Boats don't need to charge anything like so fast so the main driver for this is gone.

 

There's no technical barrier to providing charging points at boatyards/marinas/water points and maybe not even a big commercial barrier, what's really lacking is the foresight and the will to make it happen in both CART and the government.

The main thing for leisure boating is to make sure all the bases are covered - are there enough charging points at short intervals, and are the boats up to what people expect of them? The Ribble Link might be the defining bit of waterway that a narrow boat owner might reasonably expect their craft to be able to cover - does the boat have the umph and the endurance to do it? 

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3 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

The main thing for leisure boating is to make sure all the bases are covered - are there enough charging points at short intervals, and are the boats up to what people expect of them? The Ribble Link might be the defining bit of waterway that a narrow boat owner might reasonably expect their craft to be able to cover - does the boat have the umph and the endurance to do it? 

We had the discussion about charging points, and most of the network could be covered by boatyards/marinas, the gaps could be filled in in towns/villages and maybe at water points, depending on where the nearest grid access is -- the load is only similar to a couple of houses, and most houses seem to have mains power nowadays.

 

Upstream on rivers with fast-flowing currents (like the Ribble Link) is still the Achilles heel of battery electric boats. OTOH I suspect only a tiny fraction of boats ever have this problem, batteries and charging stations would meet the needs of 99% of boaters. What the 1% do is an interesting question -- bring back river tugs which charge for a tow?

Edited by IanD
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26 minutes ago, IanD said:

Even though battery swapping seems attractive for cars (speed compared to recharging) nobody has been able to find a way to make it work, either technically or commercially.

 

Boats don't need to charge anything like so fast so the main driver for this is gone.

 

There's no technical barrier to providing charging points at boatyards/marinas/water points and maybe not even a big commercial barrier, what's really lacking is the foresight and the will to make it happen in both CART and the government.

Nio which is a Chinese ev maker has made quite a lot of progress. I don't think they are a flash in the pan myself. 

 

It's not that long ago that Tesla were seen as a toy car company never going anywhere and now look at them. I see a Tesla on virtually every journey I make in my car. 

 

Two different ways of doing electric cars. Musk is a salesman at the end of the day. He would rather sell people batteries than rent them. He has chosen his path and is selling a lot of cars. 

 

It doesn't necessarily mean that is the right way to do it. 

 

Battery As A Service is interesting given the rapid advances in battery technology taking place. 

 

Energy is a consumable product. Batteries don't last forever. 

 

If you could get a closed loop recycling arrangement and rent batteries to consumers it could work quite nicely I feel. 

 

 

ETA obviously on a boat you would have the main battery bank which you would own and would be rechargeable at a charging station. 

 

The swappable batteries would be smaller, let's say 20kg modules for ease of handling and if available in the same way as a bottle of gas you could swap the removeable battery/s regularly as required while still retaining your own "full tank" for boating when out of range of battery swap stations. 

 

It would be a range extender type of arrangement not the only energy store on the boat. 

Edited by magnetman
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2 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

The main thing for leisure boating is to make sure all the bases are covered - are there enough charging points at short intervals, and are the boats up to what people expect of them? The Ribble Link might be the defining bit of waterway that a narrow boat owner might reasonably expect their craft to be able to cover - does the boat have the umph and the endurance to do it? 

 

When I helped @Duck-n-Dive on the link earlier this year, one of the other boats in the convoy didn't think they could manage it, so arranged a tow with the tug at Tarleton.  They were the last boat of eight out of the sea lock on Savick Brook and the third boat into Tarleton Lock, a long way ahead of the next pair.

 

Admittedly that's a diesel tug, but being towed by a bigger more powerful boat on more difficult sections might be one way to work it. 

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1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Nio which is a Chinese ev maker has made quite a lot of progress. I don't think they are a flash in the pan myself. 

 

It's not that long ago that Tesla were seen as a toy car company never going anywhere and now look at them. I see a Tesla on virtually every journey I make in my car. 

 

Two different ways of doing electric cars. Musk is a salesman at the end of the day. He would rather sell people batteries than rent them. He has chosen his path and is selling a lot of cars. 

 

It doesn't necessarily mean that is the right way to do it. 

 

Battery As A Service is interesting given the rapid advances in battery technology taking place. 

 

Energy is a consumable product. Batteries don't last forever. 

 

If you could get a closed loop recycling arrangement and rent batteries to consumers it could work quite nicely I feel. 

It has surprised me that car manufacturers have decided to go for selling batteries, rather than leasing them. A few years back there was a lot of concern over the likely life and deterioration in range of batteries for cars as they aged. Leasing would have got round that. Also odd in that leasing is now a major part of car manufacturers business. Effectively, most car makers are banks, leasing cars to people, with the manufacturing of cars as a side line as far as profits go.

Jen

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8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Nio which is a Chinese ev maker has made quite a lot of progress. I don't think they are a flash in the pan myself. 

 

They were celebrating their 500,000th battery swap earlier this year.  Most of which are automated swaps in a special unit.  Drive in, robot arm removes battery, arm inserts new one, drive out.

 

ADD:

 

Three minutes to swap one apparently:

 

https://newatlas.com/automotive/nio-power-500000-battery-swaps-ev/

 

 

Edited by TheBiscuits
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10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Nio which is a Chinese ev maker has made quite a lot of progress. I don't think they are a flash in the pan myself. 

 

It's not that long ago that Tesla were seen as a toy car company never going anywhere and now look at them. I see a Tesla on virtually every journey I make in my car. 

 

Two different ways of doing electric cars. Musk is a salesman at the end of the day. He would rather sell people batteries than rent them. He has chosen his path and is selling a lot of cars. 

 

It doesn't necessarily mean that is the right way to do it. 

 

Battery As A Service is interesting given the rapid advances in battery technology taking place. 

 

Energy is a consumable product. Batteries don't last forever. 

 

If you could get a closed loop recycling arrangement and rent batteries to consumers it could work quite nicely I feel. 

Battery swapping/BAAS has been proposed loads of times by lots of people; the problems are that all cars need to use the same size batteries (or a very small number of sizes), the logistics of who owns the batteries and how you know you're not getting a "bad" one, physical access into the cars to replace them -- it all sounds like a good idea until you look at the realities of making it work in practice in the capitalist world, which nobody has done.

 

At least in the West -- maybe it could work for Nio in China if the government there mandates "thou shalt all use this size of battery whether you like it or not", but there's no way this will work in the West with competing car manufacturers who are free to choose what they do (and resist being told by governments -- who can't agree with each other anyway), there's zero incentive for them to do it -- actually, the incentive is negative.

Edited by IanD
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1 minute ago, IanD said:

no way this will work in the West with competing car manufacturers who are free to choose what they do, there's zero incentive for them to do it -- actually, the incentive is negative.

It isn't just the choice of battery, indeed it isn't even the choice of battery that they would rebel against, it's the impact on their freedom to design the rest of the car

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