phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Discussion in Government already. I posted the info in post #198

 

(Do you think they get their ideas from this forum ?)

 

Teach me to read the while thread before responding. ?

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

Teach me to read the while thread before responding. ?

 

It never has before ...

 

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It never has before ...

 

 

True, I keep meaning to read to the end of a long thread before responding to a point in an earlier post but somehow I can't help responding immediately.

 

Well life's too short for that... ?

[Sea Dog]

19 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

True, I keep meaning to read to the end of a long thread before responding to a point in an earlier post but somehow I can't help responding immediately.

 

Well life's too short for that... ?

You're not alone in this - an instinctive canine response, I think. Maybe it would be good manners for others to wait a week or two before responding so we don't get caught out so much? 

[peterboat]

56 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

 

What he doest like is his free supply of red diesel will be gone shortly! Danny a plant mechanic says all they will do is build a compound first like they normally do bring up power for charging stations job done. The makers say it has a 5 hour hard work battery which with siiting not working is classed as a full day, it also can be charged from 110 v 230v or 415v depending what you choose determines speed of charging. No matter what dickheads like this one think or say it will happen

Edited November 16, 2020 by peterboat

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

What he doest like is his free supply of red diesel will be gone shortly! Danny a plant mechanic says all they will do is build a compound first like they normally do bring up power for charging stations job done. No matter what dickheads like this one think or say it will happen

 

He can always use a pick and shovel if he doesn't like the electric digger! 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Simple question for all the green carbon free supporters.

 

 

Where is all the electricity going to be generated and where from" fuel" wise?

 

Second question, where is all the copper for the distribution coming from?

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Simple question for all the green carbon free supporters.

 

Where is all the electricity going to be generated and where from" fuel" wise?

 

Nukes and renewables, mostly wind and solar in the UK.  Hopefully a tidal barrage or two which would be expensive but make a great boating lake. 

 

5 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Second question, where is all the copper for the distribution coming from?

 

If the scrap price gets high enough, I'll weigh in my pipes and switch to plastic ...

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Second question, where is all the copper for the distribution coming from?

As high voltage 'leccy is only on the surface of the conductors, shaped aluminimum conductors are used as they are also weight saving.

 

The vast majority of O/H power lines and local distribution lines are Aluminimum.

Copper is only used on the 'last few metres' to the house.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Nukes and renewables, mostly wind and solar in the UK.  Hopefully a tidal barrage or two which would be expensive but make a great boating lake. 

 

 

If the scrap price gets high enough, I'll weigh in my pipes and switch to plastic ...

 

 

So where is the oil for making plastic that is carbon free..........................?

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

So where is the oil for making plastic that is carbon free..........................?

Recycled plastic?

[1st ade]

13 hours ago, peterboat said:

What he doest like is his free supply of red diesel will be gone shortly! Danny a plant mechanic says all they will do is build a compound first like they normally do bring up power for charging stations job done. The makers say it has a 5 hour hard work battery which with siiting not working is classed as a full day, it also can be charged from 110 v 230v or 415v depending what you choose determines speed of charging. No matter what dickheads like this one think or say it will happen

He's also (very much) not comparing like with like

 

Electric digger plugged into a small (2kva?) transformer, long extension lead to an enormous generator running (by the sound of it) flat out.

 

Either: -

• if it was plugged in properly It would be charged in 30 minutes
• It would charge in the same time from a 2Kw hand carryable suitcase genny

But that doesn't suit his agenda...

[peterboat]

47 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

He's also (very much) not comparing like with like

 

Electric digger plugged into a small (2kva?) transformer, long extension lead to an enormous generator running (by the sound of it) flat out.

 

Either: -

• if it was plugged in properly It would be charged in 30 minutes
• It would charge in the same time from a 2Kw hand carryable suitcase genny

But that doesn't suit his agenda...

Exactly, these guys want red because they run their cars on it!

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

Exactly, these guys want red because they run their cars on it!

Thats a dodgy statement I would say, unless of course you have dipped their tanks 

[peterboat]

44 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Thats a dodgy statement I would say, unless of course you have dipped their tanks 

Generalisations I know  or i mentioned the plant fitter didn't i...........?

[Pluto]

22 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Happened in BT 20 years ago. They incorporated London Weighting into your pay. Problem was they then withheld pay rises to those previously in receipt of LW  because their pay was higher.

 

All that happened was they could no longer retain or attract staff to work in London because of the higher living costs.

 

In the case of BT, despite many efforts to raise it elsewhere, productivity was higher in London and the South East.

Perhaps because it was known that people in London got more money than those elsewhere. Where is the incentive in that for people outside London? The SE region has major problems with transport due to the distances people commute; a lack of affordable housing, which also encourages commuting; and a lack of sufficient clean water for the people who live there. All these factors need to be addressed when environmental policy is being decided, yet governments do little to encourage people to move to areas where the environmental problems are less.

[cuthound]

32 minutes ago, Pluto said:

Perhaps because it was known that people in London got more money than those elsewhere. Where is the incentive in that for people outside London? The SE region has major problems with transport due to the distances people commute; a lack of affordable housing, which also encourages commuting; and a lack of sufficient clean water for the people who live there. All these factors need to be addressed when environmental policy is being decided, yet governments do little to encourage people to move to areas where the environmental problems are less.

 

Doubtful, even when London Weighting was paid (circa £2250 before tax  IIRC), it didn't even cover the cost of the annual rail season ticket, let alone higher mortgage payments, higher Council Tax and other cost of living expenses.

 

Despite the higher wages, people living in London and the South East have much lower disposable incomes.

 

It when only after I retired and moved to the Midlands that I realised how much of a premium you have to pay to live in London andvthe South East.

[Machpoint005]

18 hours ago, peterboat said:

Recycled plastic?

 

..and plastic of vegetable origin.

 

22 hours ago, peterboat said:

What he doest like is his free supply of red diesel will be gone shortly! Danny a plant mechanic says all they will do is build a compound first like they normally do bring up power for charging stations job done. The makers say it has a 5 hour hard work battery which with siiting not working is classed as a full day, it also can be charged from 110 v 230v or 415v depending what you choose determines speed of charging. No matter what dickheads like this one think or say it will happen

 

9 hours ago, 1st ade said:

He's also (very much) not comparing like with like

 

Electric digger plugged into a small (2kva?) transformer, long extension lead to an enormous generator running (by the sound of it) flat out.

 

Either: -

• if it was plugged in properly It would be charged in 30 minutes
• It would charge in the same time from a 2Kw hand carryable suitcase genny

But that doesn't suit his agenda...

 

Whenever I've seen a diesel excavator being used on site, it has sat for minutes on end (sometimes hours) with its engine running, but doing no work. That doesn't happen with electric traction - stopped is stopped, full stop. Hence the five-hour working day is more than enough, and that's with today's technology.

 

 

 

[Pluto]

16 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Doubtful, even when London Weighting was paid (circa £2250 before tax  IIRC), it didn't even cover the cost of the annual rail season ticket, let alone higher mortgage payments, higher Council Tax and other cost of living expenses.

 

Despite the higher wages, people living in London and the South East have much lower disposable incomes.

 

It when only after I retired and moved to the Midlands that I realised how much of a premium you have to pay to live in London andvthe South East.

However you dress it up in financial terms, people still see someone doing the same job for more money. You also ignore the fact that it is much cheaper to visit national collections and arts  if you live in the SE. When I was first writing my book on the history of the L&LC, I could only afford to do the research in the National Archive by sleeping on the floor of Mike Carter's caravan in Tam and Di's boatyard. When visiting London, I am always amazed at how cheap public transport is compared to Lancashire. Much more money to support public transport, per head of population, is put into London compared to elsewhere.

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Pluto said:

However you dress it up in financial terms, people still see someone doing the same job for more money. You also ignore the fact that it is much cheaper to visit national collections and arts  if you live in the SE. When I was first writing my book on the history of the L&LC, I could only afford to do the research in the National Archive by sleeping on the floor of Mike Carter's caravan in Tam and Di's boatyard. When visiting London, I am always amazed at how cheap public transport is compared to Lancashire. Much more money to support public transport, per head of population, is put into London compared to elsewhere.

 

I'm not dressing anything up. The fact is that it costs a lot more to live in London and the southeast than anywhere else in the country and the wages reflect that. If they didn't ordinary people wouldn't be able to afford to live there.

 

I have lived in Lancashire, Surrey and Staffordshire and property in Surrey is at least three times more expensive to buy for a similar house than elsewhere, then again in the South East, people tend to commute further and by train which further ads to the cost of living.

 

I don't suppose  many people spend a percentage percentage of their disposable income visiting national collections and arts, wherever they live.

 

The reason why more money is spent on public transport in London is because more people need to use it. This has been the case since the time it was built.

 

Sounds like you resent anyone being paid more than you, even when it is obvious that the difference doesn't cover the additional cost of living.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by cuthound
Clarification

[Pluto]

I am just trying to suggest that the amount of investment in the SE does create problems, and is probably unsustainable, given the pressures it has created on the natural environment. It also makes it difficult for people to move around between jobs as many people would think their quality of life would reduce would reduce in the SE. At the same time, the effect of those moving out of the SE, after selling a house, can result in increasing prices outside on the SE beyond what the local market can afford - just look at the lack of affordable homes in Cornwall.

 

On public transport in London, surely if many people use it, they don't need the levels of financial support currently being given. What I question is whether a society which relies upon transport so much is sustainable, given the health implications, both from exhausts, etc, and from the density of transport.

 

As to my income, it always been low as I think the benefits of interesting work far outweigh avarice, and I have been able to do things related to my interests which would have been impossible in a conventional job. For me, it is what you put back into society, rather than what you take out.

[StephenA]

On 13/11/2020 at 15:50, peterboat said:

 and heating and cooking it will work.

Problem is that Hydrogen has about 1/3 the calorific value of Methane. So to run your boiler or cooker you're going to need a lot more gas - so you've either got to increase the pipeline pressure or the size of the pipes.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Problem is that Hydrogen has about 1/3 the calorific value of Methane. So to run your boiler or cooker you're going to need a lot more gas - so you've either got to increase the pipeline pressure or the size of the pipes.

I think you may have that the wrong way around

 

**Nett calorific value (in red)

 

Diesel, Propane and Butane (that we already use for cooking) are similar values to Methane (but I don't know anyone using Methane, or why you would have chosen that as your comparison)

 

 

 

Fuel	Density		Higher Heating Value (HHV) (Gross Calorific Value - GCV)					Lower Heating Value (LHV) (Net Calorific Value - NCV)
	@0°C/32°F, 1 bar
Gaseous fuels	[kg/m3]	[g/ft3]	[kWh/kg]	[MJ/kg]	[Btu/lb]	[MJ/m3]	[Btu/ft3]	[kWh/kg]	[MJ/kg]	[Btu/lb]	[MJ/m3]	[Btu/ft3]
Acetylene	1.097	31.1	13.9	49.9	21453	54.7	1468
Ammonia				22.5	9690
Hydrogen	0.090	2.55	39.4	141.7	60920	12.7	341	33.3	120.0	51591	10.8	290
Methane	0.716	20.3	15.4	55.5	23874	39.8	1069	13.9	50.0	21496	35.8	964
Natural gas (US market)*	0.777	22.0	14.5	52.2	22446	40.6	1090	13.1	47.1	20262	36.6	983
Town gas						18.0	483
	@15°C/60°F
Liquid fuels	[kg/l]	[kg/gal]	[kWh/kg]	[MJ/kg]	[Btu/lb]	[MJ/l]	[Btu/gal]	[kWh/kg]	[MJ/kg]	[Btu/lb]	[MJ/l]	[Btu/gal]
Acetone	0.787	2.979	8.83	31.8	13671	25.0	89792	8.22	29.6	12726	23.3	83580
Butane	0.601	3.065	13.64	49.1	21109	29.5	105875	12.58	45.3	19475	27.2	97681
Butanol	0.810		10.36	37.3	16036	30.2	108359	9.56	34.4	14789	27.9	99934
Diesel fuel*	0.846	3.202	12.67	45.6	19604	38.6	138412	11.83	42.6	18315	36.0	129306
Dimethyl ether (DME)	0.665	2.518	8.81	31.7	13629	21.1	75655	8.03	28.9	12425	19.2	68973
Ethane	0.572	2.165	14.42	51.9	22313	29.7	106513	13.28	47.8	20550	27.3	98098
Ethanol (100%)	0.789	2.987	8.25	29.7	12769	23.4	84076	7.42	26.7	11479	21.1	75583
Diethyl ether (ether)	0.716	2.710	11.94	43.0	18487	30.8	110464
Gasoline (petrol)*	0.737	2.790	12.89	46.4	19948	34.2	122694	12.06	43.4	18659	32.0	114761
Gas oil (heating oil)*	0.84	3.180	11.95	43.0	18495	36.1	129654	11.89	42.8	18401	36.0	128991
Glycerin	1.263	4.781	5.28	19.0	8169	24.0	86098
Heavy fuel oil*	0.98	3.710	11.61	41.8	17971	41.0	146974	10.83	39.0	16767	38.2	137129
Kerosene*	0.821	3.108	12.83	46.2	19862	37.9	126663	11.94	43.0	18487	35.3	126663
Light fuel oil*	0.96	3.634	12.22	44.0	18917	42.2	151552	11.28	40.6	17455	39.0	139841
LNG*	0.428	1.621	15.33	55.2	23732	23.6	84810	13.50	48.6	20894	20.8	74670
LPG*	0.537	2.033	13.69	49.3	21195	26.5	94986	12.64	45.5	19561	24.4	87664
Marine gas oil*	0.855	3.237	12.75	45.9	19733	39.2	140804	11.89	42.8	18401	36.6	131295
Methanol	0.791	2.994	6.39	23.0	9888	18.2	65274	5.54	19.9	8568	15.8	56562
Methyl ester (biodiesel)	0.888	3.361	11.17	40.2	17283	35.7	128062	10.42	37.5	16122	33.3	119460
MTBE	0.743	2.811	10.56	38.0	16337	28.2	101244	9.75	35.1	15090	26.1	93517
Oils vegetable (biodiesel)*	0.92	3.483	11.25	40.5	17412	37.3	133684	10.50	37.8	16251	34.8	124772
Paraffin (wax)*	0.90	3.407	12.78	46.0	19776	41.4	148538	11.53	41.5	17842	37.4	134007
Pentane	0.63	2.385	13.50	48.6	20894	30.6	109854	12.60	45.4	19497	28.6	102507
Petroleum naphtha*	0.725	2.745	13.36	48.1	20679	34.9	125145	12.47	44.9	19303	32.6	116819
Propane	0.498	1.885	13.99	50.4	21647	25.1	89963	12.88	46.4	19927	23.1	82816
Residual oil*	0.991	3.752				41.8	150072	10.97	39.5	16982	39.2	140470
Tar*			10.00	36.0	15477
Turpentine	0.865	3.274	12.22	44.0	18917	38.1	136555
Solid fuels*			[kWh/kg]	[MJ/kg]	[Btu/lb]			[kWh/kg]	[MJ/kg]	[Btu/lb]
Anthracite coal			9.06	32.6	14015
Bituminous coal			8.39	30.2	12984			8.06	29.0	12468
Carbon			9.11	32.8	14101
Charcoal			8.22	29.6	12726			7.89	28.4	12210
Coke			7.22	26.0	11178
Lignite (brown coal)			3.89	14.0	6019
Peat			4.72	17.0	7309
Petroleum coke			8.69	31.3	13457			8.19	29.5	12683
Semi anthracite			8.19	29.5	12683
Sub-Bituminous coal			6.78	24.4	10490
Sulfur (s)			2.56	9.2	3955			2.55	9.2	3939
Wood (dry)	0.701		4.50	16.2	6965			4.28	15.4	6621

Edited November 19, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Steilsteven]

On 16/11/2020 at 22:04, Tracy D'arth said:

So where is the oil for making plastic that is carbon free..........................?

Cellulose 

[roland elsdon]

On 17/11/2020 at 12:45, peterboat said:

Generalisations I know  or i mentioned the plant fitter didn't i...........?

We sold a Citroen visa diesel back in the 80s through exchange and mart. The ‘road making ‘ purchaser who hailed from an Emerald Isle not too far away couldn’t give a stuff about it being rusty ex driving school or anything else. He just wanted to know if it could be driven’ on the red’. I delivered it to him in Sandwell, picked up the cash, and jumped on my bike to ride back to Brinklow. He didn’t even get in it. Tax tick, mot tick, on the red ,tick.