phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[TheBiscuits]

3 hours ago, StephenA said:

Problem is that Hydrogen has about 1/3 the calorific value of Methane. So to run your boiler or cooker you're going to need a lot more gas - so you've either got to increase the pipeline pressure or the size of the pipes.

Hydrogen (H2) 120-142 MJ/kg

Methane (CH4) 50-55 MJ/kg

 

I suspect you mean "volumetric energy density" because that's about 3:1

[peterboat]

18 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

We sold a Citroen visa diesel back in the 80s through exchange and mart. The ‘road making ‘ purchaser who hailed from an Emerald Isle not too far away couldn’t give a stuff about it being rusty ex driving school or anything else. He just wanted to know if it could be driven’ on the red’. I delivered it to him in Sandwell, picked up the cash, and jumped on my bike to ride back to Brinklow. He didn’t even get in it. Tax tick, mot tick, on the red ,tick.

Exactly this 

[mrsmelly]

So Boris tells us in nine years time we can only buy electric vehicles...........................but they can have petrol engines built in to power them 

[peterboat]

20 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

So Boris tells us in nine years time we can only buy electric vehicles...........................but they can have petrol engines built in to power them 

Only as long as  it's a PHEV and don't worry Tim  they wont happen it will be electric before then ?

[roland elsdon]

Yes but like the dreadful I think it’s Toyota Self charging  non plug in hybrids. Buy a petrol engined car, us it to charge a battery to tun an electric motor.  So two great lumps of weight to drag about never mind efficiency losses.

Meanwhile at 88000 miles my Honda diesel is currently showing a throughout life average mpg of 74.2 mpg. seats five carries a tandem or 4 bikes and pays no road tax. 

[mrsmelly]

41 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Only as long as  it's a PHEV and don't worry Tim  they wont happen it will be electric before then ?

Not a chance old sport. Boris knows it cant be done by then. He also knows he will be long gone so can blame the labour government of the day for failing ?

[StephenA]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Hydrogen (H2) 120-142 MJ/kg

Methane (CH4) 50-55 MJ/kg

 

I suspect you mean "volumetric energy density" because that's about 3:1

 yes I did - so the question is   can you get 3 times the volume of hydrogen down the same line that carries methane at the same pressure?

[Cheshire cat]

2 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

We sold a Citroen visa diesel back in the 80s through exchange and mart. The ‘road making ‘ purchaser who hailed from an Emerald Isle not too far away couldn’t give a stuff about it being rusty ex driving school or anything else. He just wanted to know if it could be driven’ on the red’. I delivered it to him in Sandwell, picked up the cash, and jumped on my bike to ride back to Brinklow. He didn’t even get in it. Tax tick, mot tick, on the red ,tick.

February last year we stopped to fill the boat at a well known yard in a city centre. The proprieter said we were the first boat of the year. I expressed concern at this news because I didn't want old diesel. 

 

"Oh don't worry on that score. We have a delivery every week. People come and fetch it in their vans..............."

[ditchcrawler]

Turners probably sell more into cans in the back of a van than they do boats. 

[peterboat]

11 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

February last year we stopped to fill the boat at a well known yard in a city centre. The proprieter said we were the first boat of the year. I expressed concern at this news because I didn't want old diesel. 

 

"Oh don't worry on that score. We have a delivery every week. People come and fetch it in their vans..............."

And that's why we are losing it, loss of tax revenues 

[peterboat]

31 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 yes I did - so the question is   can you get 3 times the volume of hydrogen down the same line that carries methane at the same pressure?

They run at between 2-7 bars but .75 mili bars at the house 

[StephenA]

20 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They run at between 2-7 bars but .75 mili bars at the house 

And? Can hydrogen at that pressure run a combi boiler for a house as well as run the cooker at the same time with the same temperatures? Are they going to have to visit each and every house and upgrade / reconfigure the gas meter and make adjustments to all the gas devices in the house?  Even if you ran a mix of methane hydrogen I'd have though that regulators etc would need changing (just like you need a different regulator for propane compared to butane)

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, StephenA said:

And? Can hydrogen at that pressure run a combi boiler for a house as well as run the cooker at the same time with the same temperatures? Are they going to have to visit each and every house and upgrade / reconfigure the gas meter and make adjustments to all the gas devices in the house?  Even if you ran a mix of methane hydrogen I'd have though that regulators etc would need changing (just like you need a different regulator for propane compared to butane)

Don't ask me I know how dangerous hydrogen is I don't want it in gas pipes at any cost! ?

[StephenA]

4 hours ago, peterboat said:

Don't ask me I know how dangerous hydrogen is I don't want it in gas pipes at any cost! ?

So do I and I'd don't want it either.

[bizzard]

The R101 . The result of using hydrogen.

[roland elsdon]

7 hours ago, bizzard said:

The R101 . The result of using hydrogen.

Yes and that was world beating state of the art at the time. Not bodged up by a favoured few.

[Batavia]

1 hour ago, roland elsdon said:

Yes and that was world beating state of the art at the time. Not bodged up by a favoured few.

It was also a Government-run project!  The private venture R100 was a far superior design.    Neville Shute's autobiography "Slide Rule" is well worth reading - he was one of the principal designers of the R100.

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, StephenA said:

And? Can hydrogen at that pressure run a combi boiler for a house as well as run the cooker at the same time with the same temperatures? Are they going to have to visit each and every house and upgrade / reconfigure the gas meter and make adjustments to all the gas devices in the house?  Even if you ran a mix of methane hydrogen I'd have though that regulators etc would need changing (just like you need a different regulator for propane compared to butane)

Been done before when we changed from coat gas, produced locally, to North Sea gas, piped across the country.

[nb Innisfree]

1 hour ago, Batavia said:

It was also a Government-run project!  The private venture R100 was a far superior design.    Neville Shute's autobiography "Slide Rule" is well worth reading - he was one of the principal designers of the R100.

R101 was a cockup, it was a govt cockup but annoyingly they decided to scrap the R100 which was OK. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by nb Innisfree

[phantom_iv]

18 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

So Boris tells us in nine years time we can only buy electric vehicles...........................but they can have petrol engines built in to power them 

 

Realistically I suspect by 2030 electric vehicles will be so good (and cheap!) that very few people would want the extra cost and maintenance burden of a plug-in hybrid. It may not even be economically viable for some manufacturers to bother making them.

 

Also, buying petrol is a massive faff. Like you've got to go to a garage and everything. I bought an electric vehicle last year primarily because I'm too lazy to go and buy fuel.

Edited November 20, 2020 by phantom_iv

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, phantom_iv said:

 

Realistically I suspect by 2030 electric vehicles will be so good (and cheap!) that very few people would want the extra cost and maintenance burden of a plug-in hybrid. It may not even be economically viable for some manufacturers to bother making them.

I hope you are correct but very very much doubt it. The price hasnt come down much if at all in the last nine years and there is so much to do infrastructure wise to charge these cars god ony knows how that will be done? Just take the fact that every car every time it stops on long motorway journeys will have to plug in then services car parks will have to fit a hell of a lot of leccy points. How do people who live in high rise blocks of flats do it, rows of terraced houses with on street parking often no where near their own house etc etc etc etc etc. Public transport isnt going to become suddenly available to all so millions will still need to commute by car. If in nine years time the genuine distance capable by the cheaper end car has been addressed then its a distant possibility but theres a hell of a long way to go and nine years to do it in????

[magpie patrick]

10 hours ago, bizzard said:

The R101 . The result of using hydrogen.

I can't help feeling that filling an airship with natural gas would have similar consequences, with the added problem it wouldn't fly

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, magpie patrick said:

I can't help feeling that filling an airship with natural gas would have similar consequences, with the added problem it wouldn't fly

Yes agreed. Filling canvas bags or whatever they were made of isnt the same as metal pipes.

[phantom_iv]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

I hope you are correct but very very much doubt it. The price hasnt come down much if at all in the last nine years and there is so much to do infrastructure wise to charge these cars god ony knows how that will be done? Just take the fact that every car every time it stops on long motorway journeys will have to plug in then services car parks will have to fit a hell of a lot of leccy points. How do people who live in high rise blocks of flats do it, rows of terraced houses with on street parking often no where near their own house etc etc etc etc etc. Public transport isnt going to become suddenly available to all so millions will still need to commute by car. If in nine years time the genuine distance capable by the cheaper end car has been addressed then its a distant possibility but theres a hell of a long way to go and nine years to do it in????

The major manufacturers haven't really been trying until the past couple of years until they started to take note of how many cars Tesla was selling. Now countries are starting to phase out combustion engines (Norway bans them in five years!) they need to get their act together or go out of business. Competition among the big boys will rapidly force the pace of development - VW for example is throwing countless billions at EV development, Daimler (I think) said they're abandoning all further combustion engine development from now on...

 

Assuming mr Musk is right with his forthcoming batteries that'll be 50% better and 50% cheaper then we'll have 500-mile plus EVs by 2022-ish at a lower price point than today. Seems inconceivable that it won't get significantly better in the next 8 years.

 

The idea that we're all going to start using public transport is laughable and should be abandoned now. Yes, let's make it better but be realistic.

 

Yes, we're going to need a hell of a lot of leccy points. But installing them in lamp posts for example can be done - perhaps some pop-up ones in the pavement? If people are leaving home fully charged in a 500 mile EV then they probably won't need that many fuel stops, but for most people if their car has 500 mile range then charging once per week at a public charger shouldn't be the end of the world, assuming it only takes 10 mins or so - do it while in the supermarket!

 

Yes, there's work to do, but necessity is the mother of invention after all, I'm not worried about where we'll be in 10 years time. A lot of the objections/outcries we're hearing from people seem to date from 15 years ago, not sure a lot of people appreciate how technology has moved on.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

The major manufacturers haven't really been trying until the past couple of years until they started to take note of how many cars Tesla was selling. Now countries are starting to phase out combustion engines (Norway bans them in five years!) they need to get their act together or go out of business. Competition among the big boys will rapidly force the pace of development - VW for example is throwing countless billions at EV development, Daimler (I think) said they're abandoning all further combustion engine development from now on...

 

Assuming mr Musk is right with his forthcoming batteries that'll be 50% better and 50% cheaper then we'll have 500-mile plus EVs by 2022-ish at a lower price point than today. Seems inconceivable that it won't get significantly better in the next 8 years.

 

The idea that we're all going to start using public transport is laughable and should be abandoned now. Yes, let's make it better but be realistic.

 

Yes, we're going to need a hell of a lot of leccy points. But installing them in lamp posts for example can be done - perhaps some pop-up ones in the pavement? If people are leaving home fully charged in a 500 mile EV then they probably won't need that many fuel stops, but for most people if their car has 500 mile range then charging once per week at a public charger shouldn't be the end of the world, assuming it only takes 10 mins or so - do it while in the supermarket!

 

Yes, there's work to do, but necessity is the mother of invention after all, I'm not worried about where we'll be in 10 years time. A lot of the objections/outcries we're hearing from people seem to date from 15 years ago, not sure a lot of people appreciate how technology has moved on.

 

 

Fair enough, I hope thats correct. I just looked at a nissan leaf from 2012 on ebay. Seller wants 3500 and says it will still have a range of 50 miles  but I spose the batteris now need replacing and god knows how much they are alone??? So vastly more expensive still than a similar 8 years old ice car and huge amount to pay for batteries and even then not much range.

I do hope it is acheivable but will the billions of Chines and Indians etc etc be doing he same thing otherwise its pointless.