phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[phantom_iv]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Fair enough, I hope thats correct. I just looked at a nissan leaf from 2012 on ebay. Seller wants 3500 and says it will still have a range of 50 miles  but I spose the batteris now need replacing and god knows how much they are alone??? So vastly more expensive still than a similar 8 years old ice car and huge amount to pay for batteries and even then not much range.

I do hope it is acheivable but will the billions of Chines and Indians etc etc be doing he same thing otherwise its pointless.

The 2012 Leaf only had a range of about 70 miles fresh out the factory. 2018 Leaf is more like 150-odd. Still way too low, but that's still a more than 100% improvement in 6 years in a market without a huge amount of competition. At that rate of progress there's time for two more doublings by 2030 ? 

[Ronaldo47]

A relative who works for a major car manufacturer tells me that most of the present sales of electric cars seem to be second cars for two (or more) - car families. Those that can afford the price of a new electric car will amost certainly have off-street parking to facilitate charging. High initial cost and lack of off-street parking to facilitate charging will make them considerably less attractive for the less affluent.

 

There seens to be little realistic scope for volume manufacture leading to price reduction due to the high cost and limited supply of the raw materials needed for battery manufacture. 

 

We are used to expressing fuel efficiency in terms of miles per gallon because selling liquid fuel to consumers by volume is the only practical method. However, in science and engineering, it is the mass of fuel that is used. When any hydrocarbon (or hydrogen) fuel is burnt completely, the end result should in prnciple only be water and carbon dioxide. The amount of energy liberated is directly proportional to the number of hydrogen molecules in the fuel. Hence diesel will always yield more mpg than petrol. Of course, in an internal combustion engine (really an internal explosion engine), the rapid combution of fuel means that complete combustion can never take place, so that the exhaust gases contain substances other that water and carbon dioxide. 

[bizzard]

Years ago many street lights had exposed bulbs facing downwards. It was easy the climb up a little ladder remove the bulb an plug ones own extention lead into it. If you use a double adapter you could put the bulb back in to hide the fact or you'd have a council bloke round with a new bulb thinking the old ones blown. You had to wait until lighting up time of course, unless the timer had gone wrong wrong and the street lamp was on all the time, which was handy.  

  Mrs Knight had a fright,

In the middle of the night.

She saw a ghost'

Eating toast

Climbing up a lampost.     Of course it wasn't eating toast, it was plugging in an extention lead to boil a kettle for tea.

[Mad Harold]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Fair enough, I hope thats correct. I just looked at a nissan leaf from 2012 on ebay. Seller wants 3500 and says it will still have a range of 50 miles  but I spose the batteris now need replacing and god knows how much they are alone??? So vastly more expensive still than a similar 8 years old ice car and huge amount to pay for batteries and even then not much range.

I do hope it is acheivable but will the billions of Chines and Indians etc etc be doing he same thing otherwise its pointless.

Just looked up the price for a replacement battery for a Nissan Leaf.

Are you sitting down?

American website $ 6000 

E bay UK £4500.

 Reading various reports on the Nissan Leaf,it appears that for various technical reasons,this car is particularly hard on it's battery.

[mrsmelly]

12 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Years ago many street lights had exposed bulbs facing downwards. It was easy the climb up a little ladder remove the bulb an plug ones own extention lead into it. If you use a double adapter you could put the bulb back in to hide the fact or you'd have a council bloke round with a new bulb thinking the old ones blown. You had to wait until lighting up time of course, unless the timer had gone wrong wrong and the street lamp was on all the time, which was handy.  

  Mrs Knight had a fright,

In the middle of the night.

She saw a ghost'

Eating toast

Climbing up a lampost.     Of course it wasn't eating toast, it was plugging in an extention lead to boil a kettle for tea.

Street lighting was gas until as recently as the 1950s in many places. My old Dad was a street light bod who used to go round turning em off with a snuffer each morning. I cant recal if he lit them or not??

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Street lighting was gas until as recently as the 1950s in many places. My old Dad was a street light bod who used to go round turning em off with a snuffer each morning. I cant recal if he lit them or not??

I think they had  a pilot flame burning permanently and the lamp lighter just used his pole to move the gas valve for the main burner. I think some gas lamps had clockwork times that needed winding every week or so - also electric street lights.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Just looked up the price for a replacement battery for a Nissan Leaf.

Are you sitting down?

American website $ 6000 

E bay UK £4500.

 Reading various reports on the Nissan Leaf,it appears that for various technical reasons,this car is particularly hard on it's battery.

Because the Leaf has been around the longest as a 'main stream' electric car expertise in repairing rather than replacing the entire battery packs is growing. There are even a few You Tube videos demonstrating how to remove, test and repair them.

 

Not for the faint hearted though!

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Street lighting was gas until as recently as the 1950s in many places. My old Dad was a street light bod who used to go round turning em off with a snuffer each morning. I cant recal if he lit them or not??

One of the old TV No hiding place intallments was about the police trying to find a gypsy that had done something wrong. They tracked him down by fiindig an extention lead plugged into a street lamp, the lead led through a high hedge to his caravan where he thought he was hidden and safe.  The police got a good lead to catch him.  I think that old No hiding place series is starting again Talking Picturs TV Freeview 81.  My favourite is Alfred Burke in Public Eye on Thursday nights, very eerie evocotive theme music, by Robert Earley.

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

One of the old TV No hiding place intallments was about the police trying to find a gypsy that had done something wrong. They tracked him down by fiindig an extention lead plugged into a street lamp, the lead led through a high hedge to his caravan where he thought he was hidden and safe.  The police got a good lead to catch him.  I think that old No hiding place series is starting again Talking Picturs TV Freeview 81.  My favourite is Alfred Burke in Public Eye on Thursday nights, very eerie evocotive theme music, by Robert Earley.

 

[Mad Harold]

14 minutes ago, bizzard said:

One of the old TV No hiding place intallments was about the police trying to find a gypsy that had done something wrong. They tracked him down by fiindig an extention lead plugged into a street lamp, the lead led through a high hedge to his caravan where he thought he was hidden and safe.  The police got a good lead to catch him.  I think that old No hiding place series is starting again Talking Picturs TV Freeview 81.  My favourite is Alfred Burke in Public Eye on Thursday nights, very eerie evocotive theme music, by Robert Earley.

You're giving your age away if you remember No Hiding Place.

I was still at school then,and remember Superintendant Lockhart chasing along in a Wolsley with a bell on the front.

Just had a look at the picture above.The car looks to be a Humber.

Memory getting dim?

Edited November 20, 2020 by Mad Harold

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

You're giving your age away if you remember No Hiding Place.

I was still at school then,and remember Superintendant Lockhart chasing along in a Wolsley with a bell on the front.

So was I at school.

9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

 

I drove one of those Super Snipes for my sisters wedding, powerful old cars.

I'll have to find the theme tune to Public Eye, itr's really good, well I think so.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, phantom_iv said:

The 2012 Leaf only had a range of about 70 miles fresh out the factory. 2018 Leaf is more like 150-odd. Still way too low, but that's still a more than 100% improvement in 6 years in a market without a huge amount of competition. At that rate of progress there's time for two more doublings by 2030 ? 

239 miles for the leaf eplus I am afraid

55 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Because the Leaf has been around the longest as a 'main stream' electric car expertise in repairing rather than replacing the entire battery packs is growing. There are even a few You Tube videos demonstrating how to remove, test and repair them.

 

Not for the faint hearted though!

I watch them as well Martin 10 minutes to remove battery pack 45 mins to strip it down, they do seem to know what they doing dont they? and now range upgrades are available so its still moving forward

[phantom_iv]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

239 miles for the leaf eplus I am afraid

I was comparing the base spec - there was a bigger battery pack in 2012 too ?

 

Regarding battery longevity, I was talking to a guy at my local tip last week (that's as close to socialising as we're allowed right now!) who had a Prius from about 2005-ish, he said the battery was in remarkably good shape considering how everyone said they'd last 5 years max back then. He'd had to replace a cell on it recently which cost a couple of hundred £ but apart from that was working really well. 

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, phantom_iv said:

I was comparing the base spec - there was a bigger battery pack in 2012 too ?

 

Regarding battery longevity, I was talking to a guy at my local tip last week (that's as close to socialising as we're allowed right now!) who had a Prius from about 2005-ish, he said the battery was in remarkably good shape considering how everyone said they'd last 5 years max back then. He'd had to replace a cell on it recently which cost a couple of hundred £ but apart from that was working really well. 

I have 2 honda hybrids one is 2005 the other 2011 both on original batteries both working very well and a joy to drive 

[Momac]

25 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have 2 honda hybrids one is 2005 the other 2011 both on original batteries both working very well and a joy to drive 

Perhaps owning one car per household would  be more a more environmentally friendly target ?

[Iain_S]

6 hours ago, bizzard said:

Years ago many street lights had exposed bulbs facing downwards. It was easy the climb up a little ladder remove the bulb an plug ones own extention lead into it. If you use a double adapter you could put the bulb back in to hide the fact or you'd have a council bloke round with a new bulb thinking the old ones blown. You had to wait until lighting up time of course, unless the timer had gone wrong wrong and the street lamp was on all the time, which was handy.  

  Mrs Knight had a fright,

In the middle of the night.

She saw a ghost'

Eating toast

Climbing up a lampost.     Of course it wasn't eating toast, it was plugging in an extention lead to boil a kettle for tea.

These days, round our way, quite a large number of street lights have a 16A commando socket attached. Used for Christmas decorations. 

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, MartynG said:

Perhaps owning one car per household would  be more a more environmentally friendly target ?

We live in different places! I also have 2 electric vehicles as well both charged by solar 

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, MartynG said:

Perhaps owning one car per household would  be more a more environmentally friendly target ?

Not so sure? After all even if you have 23 cars ( Thats how many I owned when I met the current wife ) you can only drive one at once and stood there they dont make any pollution. Of course making he damn things certainly does!!

[Momac]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

Of course making he damn things certainly does!!

Not to mention decommissioning.

Not to mention servicing , tyres , lubrication (or perhaps you didn't service them)

 

 

 

[roland elsdon]

Last year we were camping with friends in northern Victoria. We were in the trusty vw camper our friends in a cabin  with their new Tesla. They arrived at about 8 pm and plugged in to the caravan park , having stopped for a brief supercharge 60 kms down the road. The plan was to trickle charge overnight and that would give them enough  go back to the supercharger on the way home  2 days later, and gain a full charge to get back to melbourne.
 

At 10 pm came the news their son was in the emergency department in Melbourne.

 

Frantic calculations re range and time. Nearest supercharger 60kms away.

Enough range to get there was going to take hours even though he had dual chargers, of course dark and hilly too, so not good range.

 

They ended up leaving nearly 6 hrs later. Then having to stop for a full supercharge part way, in the middle of the night.

 

24 hr fuel pump by the park entrance. It’s no good without infrastructure.

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Last year we were camping with friends in northern Victoria. We were in the trusty vw camper our friends in a cabin  with their new Tesla. They arrived at about 8 pm and plugged in to the caravan park , having stopped for a brief supercharge 60 kms down the road. The plan was to trickle charge overnight and that would give them enough  go back to the supercharger on the way home  2 days later, and gain a full charge to get back to melbourne.
 

At 10 pm came the news their son was in the emergency department in Melbourne.

 

Frantic calculations re range and time. Nearest supercharger 60kms away.

Enough range to get there was going to take hours even though he had dual chargers, of course dark and hilly too, so not good range.

 

They ended up leaving nearly 6 hrs later. Then having to stop for a full supercharge part way, in the middle of the night.

 

24 hr fuel pump by the park entrance. It’s no good without infrastructure.

Supercharging can charge up Trsla batteries to 80% in half an hour so it must have been a very brief stop! My mate Neil goes to London twice a week in his, supercharger whilst having breakfast at Woodall services, drives to London slow charging at the court where he works, drives home in evening drives for couple of days then repeats, has been doing this for 2 years now. He has never paid to charge and never run out of charge. 

[StephenA]

11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

. How do people who live in high rise blocks of flats do it, rows of terraced houses with on street parking often no where near their own house etc etc etc etc etc. Public transport isnt going to become suddenly available to all so millions will still need to commute by car. If in nine years time the genuine distance capable by the cheaper end car has been addressed then its a distant possibility but theres a hell of a long way to go and nine years to do it in????

I've repeatedly asked that question but there seems to be no answer.  Even if you use lamp posts as distribution points you're still going to have cables all over the place ... and what's to stop the scrotes coming down in the middle of the night and pulling all the plugs out.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, StephenA said:

I've repeatedly asked that question but there seems to be no answer.  Even if you use lamp posts as distribution points you're still going to have cables all over the place ... and what's to stop the scrotes coming down in the middle of the night and pulling all the plugs out.

When I have previously raised this on here the answer was they wont need to worry because the masses wont be able to afford personal transport so will be confined to mass transport systems.

 

Make of that what you will.

[Dalesman]

Will it just be us in the UK or are the rest of the world doing the same thing..? Can't see it happening in the USA or China for that matter.

[nb Innisfree]

10 hours ago, StephenA said:

I've repeatedly asked that question but there seems to be no answer.  Even if you use lamp posts as distribution points you're still going to have cables all over the place ... and what's to stop the scrotes coming down in the middle of the night and pulling all the plugs out.

Car and charge point auto locks plug in place while charging.