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phasing out of fossil fuels - programme


magpie patrick

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55 minutes ago, peterboat said:

>>I have 2 friends with wind farms on their land I went to school with both of them<<

 

I worked in the industry, developing onshore wind farms in England, Scotland and Wales, offshore wind turbine arrays, and singleton turbines, for more than 25 years, but this isn't a dick-measuring contest.

 

Subsidies to the wind energy industry have led to the position we are now in, where onshore wind energy is cheaper, without subsidies, than fossil fuel energy souces. Offshore wind is going the same way. With no subsidies in the eaarly years (of whatever form) it would have taken much longer to reach this point.   

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

Does anyone have an idea of the size of the battery bank that we will need to say, cruise for a week without charging, in 2050? Assuming Lithiums. 

 

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is not just the cruising, it is 'everything else' if you have an electric boat.

 

It will also depend on the weather, the amount of solar you have, how far you you mean by 'cruise for a week' ( 1 hour per day, 12 hours per day, 168 hours per week)

 

You ask an impossible question.

The IWA are asking for charging points around the system think it was in canal world? Hopefully CRT will listen, the IWA seems to be ahead of the game 

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16 hours ago, Detling said:

On the subject of hydrogen the current proposal is to mix hydrogen with natural gas in the gas main. One problem will be that the mixture goes in and 50 miles away the natural gas will come out without any hydrogen which will have leaked out enroute. The hydrogen atom is the smallest atom and thus can seep through tiny holes that the comparably enormous natural gas molecule cannot escape through. You need special containers to hold hydrogen, your normal pipes won't cut it. Dig up every road not a chance. I do not know how porous the yellow plastic pipes are but I am not holding my breath. Hydrogen is also highly reactive it likes combining with other atoms often violently, but will it react with the plastic in any way?

 

 

That's one proposal, one.

 

There are several other ways of storing energy in the form of hydrogen that do not involve bunging it into an existing pipe network.

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1 minute ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

I worked in the industry, developing onshore wind farms in England, Scotland and Wales, offshore wind turbine arrays, and singleton turbines, for more than 25 years, but this isn't a dick-measuring contest.

 

Subsidies to the wind energy industry have led to the position we are now in, where onshore wind energy is cheaper, without subsidies, than fossil fuel energy souces. Offshore wind is going the same way. With no subsidies in the eaarly years (of whatever form) it would have taken much longer to reach this point.   

 

 

I am not disagreeing with you new wind turbines are the dogs doodahs, very efficient to say the least and definitely the future 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is not just the cruising, it is 'everything else' if you have an electric boat.

 

It will also depend on the weather, the amount of solar you have, how far you you mean by 'cruise for a week' ( 1 hour per day, 12 hours per day, 168 hours per week)

 

You ask an impossible question.

I'm only interested in the cruising bit, a simpler question then is how many watts are eaten for an hour's cruising at 4mph for your average prop, no wind, and no water current 

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2 hours ago, Thomas C King said:

Does anyone have an idea of the size of the battery bank that we will need to say, cruise for a week without charging, in 2050? Assuming Lithiums. 

Given that commercial rechargable Lithium batteries have only been around for 30 years and 2050 is 30 years in the future, impossible to say. Who knows what chemistry will be used by then, or its cost, or charge density.

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2 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

I'm only interested in the cruising bit, a simpler question then is how many watts are eaten for an hour's cruising at 4mph for your average prop, no wind, and no water current 

2 to 3 kW is the power required, depending on the hull, water depth and so on. No consumption when you are in a lock, unlike a diesel engine. Multiply that by the number of hours you cruise for the kWhrs you'll need from the battery.

<pedant> Watt is a unit of power, not energy, so watts per hour isn't meaningful</pedant>

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46 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

I'm only interested in the cruising bit, a simpler question then is how many watts are eaten for an hour's cruising at 4mph for your average prop, no wind, and no water current 

1.5KW Finesse boats figures

42 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

2 to 3 kW is the power required, depending on the hull, water depth and so on. No consumption when you are in a lock, unlike a diesel engine. Multiply that by the number of hours you cruise for the kWhrs you'll need from the battery.

<pedant> Watt is a unit of power, not energy, so watts per hour isn't meaningful</pedant>

Finesse went cruising up your bit of canal in a 65 footer it was drawing 1.5 KW to cruise at 4mph

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22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Reading the plan say "Zero air pollutants and greenhouse gas emission shipping" which I would take as meaning "zero emission in use", ie no engine emissions.

But that is just how I read it.

 

This could be achieved by using the new EDiesel which would allow boats to keep their existing diesel engines.

 

https://news.umich.edu/from-ponds-to-power-2m-to-perfect-algae-as-diesel-fuel/

And there is a big difference between zero emission and zero carbon

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59 minutes ago, peterboat said:

1.5KW Finesse boats figures

Finesse went cruising up your bit of canal in a 65 footer it was drawing 1.5 KW to cruise at 4mph

 

56 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would have thought that about right 1.5Hp ish,

 

2hp, in fact. Kilowatts are quite a bit bigger than horsepower (1hp = 0.75kW. more or less)

 

 

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22 hours ago, Heartland said:

All the talk seems to be of electric power. The aspect of hydrogen power  and fuel cells seems to have been not mentioned. There is a boat on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal which has that type of power. It is by Birmingham University.

 

 

Parked there, an experiment.

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Yup 60% reduction so it fails at the first hurdle!

I guess the value in such research depends a lot on how the all-electric experiment pans out. If it succeeds by 2030 (which means being 80% successful in about 3 or 4 years time) then there will be little market for alternative diesel fuels. On the other hand, if we get close to 2030 and there is no viable solution to the cessation of the market for any ICE products then 60% reduction looks like a good thing, at least to buy time for a longer transition to something which is genuinely end-to-end zero carbon, zero emissions (so needs a replacement for current tyre technology) and which makes sustainable use of rare substances - as well as meeting the demand for functionality.

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Pistons and valves jumping up and down, camshafts and chains whizzing round, multiple gears whirring, water pumps pumping, clutches and torque converters slipping and sliding, belts driving alternators, complex pipes channeling hot gases, complex fuel injection, spark plugs, oil and filters, etc etc etc. All held together with bolts and gaskets

Is this the near future? I doubt it somehow. 

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1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

Pistons and valves jumping up and down, camshafts and chains whizzing round, multiple gears whirring, water pumps pumping, clutches and torque converters slipping and sliding, belts driving alternators, complex pipes channeling hot gases, complex fuel injection, spark plugs, oil and filters, etc etc etc. All held together with bolts and gaskets

Is this the near future? I doubt it somehow. 

You know that and I know that but its hard to convince the unbelievers, that's why boris has brought in the 2030 deadline, it also makes the car makers stop putting R & D into ICE cars 

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9 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Pistons and valves jumping up and down, camshafts and chains whizzing round, multiple gears whirring, water pumps pumping, clutches and torque converters slipping and sliding, belts driving alternators, complex pipes channeling hot gases, complex fuel injection, spark plugs, oil and filters, etc etc etc. All held together with bolts and gaskets

Is this the near future? I doubt it somehow. 

 

I agree, but my car doesn't have the highlighted components!

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1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

 

2hp, in fact. Kilowatts are quite a bit bigger than horsepower (1hp = 0.75kW. more or less)

 

 

 

I was allowing for losses that's why I added ish on the end

2 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

And he is famed for never ever ever making a u turn on anything...so shove your money on it.

He is not likely to be PM in 2030 so wont be his problem

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40 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Pistons and valves jumping up and down, camshafts and chains whizzing round, multiple gears whirring, water pumps pumping, clutches and torque converters slipping and sliding, belts driving alternators, complex pipes channeling hot gases, complex fuel injection, spark plugs, oil and filters, etc etc etc. All held together with bolts and gaskets

Is this the near future? I doubt it somehow. 

Maybe not, but all those things have been involved in some awesome motive power stuff in the past! We can't berate the internal combustion engine and get all dewey-eyed about steam.  When horses were  choking London with dung the ICE looked like a saviour. All things must pass.

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10 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Maybe not, but all those things have been involved in some awesome motive power stuff in the past! We can't berate the internal combustion engine and get all dewey-eyed about steam.  When horses were  choking London with dung the ICE looked like a saviour. All things must pass.

It was great while it lasted. 

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1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

It was great while it lasted. 

It was, I was looking at a 49 Ford F1 yesterday my daughters boyfriend lives in New Orleans it was a 32k one owner flat head V8, I have had one before and at 3K dollars I am really tempted! One a petrol head always a petrol head I suppose? But I would more than likely convert it to electric nowadays ?

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