Wheel or Tiller on a widebeam

[Murflynn]

about time we had another balloon festival ....................  god knows, there's enuff hot air in this thread alone to fill a dozen balloons.   

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Bee said:

Rudder position indicator? superfluous in my opinion, cars don't have them.

They generally do, but not many people realise it - not electronic but a visual indication that the wheels are 'central'.

 

Most car steering wheels 'spokes' are set up to be horizontal when the wheels are central, the makers logo is horizontal and any wheel mounted switches are at 3 O'clock and 9 O'clock.

 

When the steering wheel is fitted to the car the splines are aligned to ensure the wheel is correctly positioned, when the tracking is adjusted, the steering wheel is centralised before the tracking is adjusted.

 

Driving with the steering wheel 'off' is not pleasant.

 

[DandV]

11 minutes ago, Bee said:

If you are having a boat built then tiller is much cheaper, a bit of steelwork and a rudder, job done.  A wheel though can go anywhere, front, back middle. to one side, however it will not be cheap. A tiller in a wheelhouse is not really a good idea, a wheel is. So far as handling is concerned you will get used to either. Very early motor cars sometimes had tiller steering, can't see that making a comeback. Rudder position indicator? superfluous in my opinion, cars don't have them. As soon as you engage a gear you will naturally just start steering. 

Never steered a boat with a rudder indicator but wished some I have did had one when manoeuvring from a standing start. Had to resort to winding the wheel hard over in one direction or the other, to first verify the rudder position before adjusting and then giving the prop a squirt in the desired direction. 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by DandV

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, Bee said:

If you are having a boat built then tiller is much cheaper, a bit of steelwork and a rudder, job done.  A wheel though can go anywhere, front, back middle. to one side, however it will not be cheap. A tiller in a wheelhouse is not really a good idea, a wheel is. So far as handling is concerned you will get used to either. Very early motor cars sometimes had tiller steering, can't see that making a comeback. Rudder position indicator? superfluous in my opinion, cars don't have them. As soon as you engage a gear you will naturally just start steering. 

Rudder indicator makes life a lot easier, when I first fitted the wheel I found steering hard and zigzaggy the indicator sorted it especially for Jayne. John has a really big boat with low geared steering without the indicator you could not steer it safely, I covered it to try so know from experience.  Another advantage for wheel is the controls are always to hand, so it's easier especially on 12 foot wide boats

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They generally do, but not many people realise it - not electronic but a visual indication that the wheels are 'central'.

 

Most car steering wheels 'spokes' are set up to be horizontal when the wheels are central, the makers logo is horizontal and any wheel mounted switches are at 3 O'clock and 9 O'clock.

 

When the steering wheel is fitted to the car the splines are aligned to ensure the wheel is correctly positioned, when the tracking is adjusted, the steering wheel is centralised before the tracking is adjusted.

 

Driving with the steering wheel 'off' is not pleasant.

 

Tell me about it I have spent days getting the steering wheel straight on my VW camper 

[Bee]

Our boat has only a few turns from lock to lock, more than a car but a lot less than some of the bigger barges that we see  where frantic wheel spinning is sometimes seen so maybe we don't need an indicator. The modern way is joystick steering where the wheelhouse looks like a JCB with handles and little levers everywhere. If I am ever asked would I like a go at that then please somebody stop me saying yes.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Bee said:

Our boat has only a few turns from lock to lock, more than a car but a lot less than some of the bigger barges that we see  where frantic wheel spinning is sometimes seen so maybe we don't need an indicator. The modern way is joystick steering where the wheelhouse looks like a JCB with handles and little levers everywhere. If I am ever asked would I like a go at that then please somebody stop me saying yes.

 

Some of the more elderly boats had cable & / or chain drives to the rudder(s) and these definitely needed a lot of turns to take up the slack in the system before the rudder even started to move.

 

Hydraulic systems typically take 5 turns lock-to-lock, but it is still advantageous to know the rudder position prior to trying to move off the wall / pontoon or you could end up driving into the wall and just 'sliding along' it.

 

Outboard powered boats generally have a geared heavy-duty version of a throttle / gear cable for the steering and the movement is almost instant and similar in sensitivity to a tiller.

 

[bizzard]

A few years ago we had a huge trip boat operating up here at the top of the Stort. It was one of the ones that was a failure at the Olimpic games park on the river Lee, built specially by Colcraft.. It was wheel steered. I met it coming head on around a bend, I got over as much as possible but it tail wagged and nudged me into the bank under a damson tree. It kept crashing all over the place. It also blasted the banks to bits with it's bow thrusters. It only operated for one summer and they took the thing away. Not very many things of interest up here really, views of the back of Sainsbury's, the flour mill, the sanitory station, the sewage works, train spotting,  Southmill lock is pretty, Rushy Mead nature reserve is not spectacular either. If you hide in a bush for hours on end keeping quite and still one might, just might see a hedgehog or a rat.  Anyway I stayed under that damson tree for a while picking them and made some damson jam.

[peterboat]

24 minutes ago, Bee said:

Our boat has only a few turns from lock to lock, more than a car but a lot less than some of the bigger barges that we see  where frantic wheel spinning is sometimes seen so maybe we don't need an indicator. The modern way is joystick steering where the wheelhouse looks like a JCB with handles and little levers everywhere. If I am ever asked would I like a go at that then please somebody stop me saying yes.

Mine is 5 turns lock to lock and I still get lost

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is not difficult - centre rudder, apply a couple of turns of red insulating tape (other colours available) at the top of the wheel and you know when your rudder is central.

Simply count the turns from stop-to-stop (mine is 5 turns) so you could be a full turn 'out' when you centre the wheel but you'll have the rudder at almost 45 degrees so the boat will still be turning so it'll be pretty obvious the rudder is not centralised.

 

I do have electronic rudder indicators at both helms but a wrap of tape, is KISS !

I will give the tape idea a go

 

[blackrose]

11 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Having done both, it doesn't really matter.  There's many that have only ever used a tiller so insist they are better, but if you can steer with a wheel you can easily do either.

 

I've used both too and I agree that if you can steer you can use either. However there is a difference and for close quarters handling around other boats I'd rather be using a tiller every time.

 

To some degree it will depend on how well wheel steering is set up, but however good the set up you will get much more instant response from a tiller.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yes, I'm aware of that thanks.  I think that's why non-drivers pick it up faster than drivers - they don't expect the steering to react the way it does in a car so they just do what needs doing.  

 

Car drivers who haven't steered boats before have to work out the difference between the input at the wheel and the reaction of the boat compared to the car.

 

 

 

WellI I suppose the fact given that cars go on ferries means that your comment wasn't 100% entirely irrelevant.

[blackrose]

10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think that is probably the essence of the advantage of a wheel on a wide beam. I don't have personal experience of steering a wide beam but I've watched a lot of people doing so and with a tiller, unless it has a very long arm they have difficulty seeing down the side of the boat to line the boat up to get into narrower openings. If the wheel is fitted to one side or the other of the boat then at least you can see where one side is and, like a car, judge your direction accordingly.

 

You don't really need to see down the side of any boat to steer it and avoid hitting things because you should know how wide the boat is. I steer a 12ft widebeam with a tiller. I never look down the side of the boat and I don't hit things. 

[blackrose]

10 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Ships that cross the busiest shipping lane in the world every couple of hours and moor up in harbours designed for rowing boats on a tight timetable?

 

If that's not your definition of accurate close quarters handling, I'd be fascinated to know what is!

 

Admittedly most of them are on Azipod joysticks now, but that's not the point ...

 

 

Surely it is the point because a joystick isn't a wheel? A lot of these ships have thrusters all over the place too so again your analogy isn't really relevant.

[Iain_S]

13 hours ago, DandV said:

A tiller is much more immediate, and gives a degree of feel such as rudder stall.

A wheel has the advantage on a boat with visibility limitations is that it can be briefly left for a peep up the side of the boat.

So can a tiller. A tiller can also have an extension fited, so that the steerer can peer down either side of the boat, while still operating the steering. Think sailing dinghies

[Iain_S]

12 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

That'll be why the cross channel ferries all switched from wheel  to tiller steering ...

Thought a lot of them had joysticks ...

 

 

Edited to add : Must read the est of the thread before replying

Edited September 4, 2020 by Iain_S

[howardang]

2 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I will give the tape idea a go

 

For a  posher version of Tape fit a Turks Head, or you will also see on wooden wheels a Brass cap which serves the same purpose. Usually referred to as a King Spoke.

 

Howard

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by howardang

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

Edited to add : Must read the rest of the thread before replying

 

You must be new here ... 

 

It's not the CWDF way!

[PD1964]

5 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

WellI I suppose the fact given that cars go on ferries means that your comment wasn't 100% entirely irrelevant.

Just like everything you have contributed to the thread, Irreverent to the initial question. 
 Looking at all your other posts you don’t really contribute anything positive or knowledgeable that much, you just seam to post for the sake of posting, maybe to get your post count up to look an active experienced member since you only joined in February, or just maybe you just don’t have that much experience in the real world????

Edited September 4, 2020 by PD1964

[nb Innisfree]

Posted about Innisfree's wheel steering yonks ago but here goes again. I made up a mechanical linkage which resulted in approx 2.5 to 2.75 turns lock to lock but found a steering wheel too much of a handful so I replaced it with a simple crank handle with a knob on the end. This proved to be very practical, crank in the 6 o'clock position was ahead and the small number of turns made it very quick to respond and ahead position easy to determine, very practical. I posted a pic of it if anyone is interested enough to find it.

Edited September 4, 2020 by nb Innisfree

[Tam & Di]

5 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

You don't really need to see down the side of any boat to steer it and avoid hitting things because you should know how wide the boat is. I steer a 12ft widebeam with a tiller. I never look down the side of the boat and I don't hit things. 

I basically agree with this - it's much the same as driving a car. My only reservation is that the OP is a novice (I assume) and talking in particular of manoeuvring in a marina, and will not therefore be cruising along at a steady pace. Depending on what the mooring layout is it could well merit a look along the side from time to time to check her position relative to other craft - I would definitely prefer a tiller there too, as it is pretty instant to move from full port to full starboard if required.

 

Tam

[Guest]

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Just like everything you have contributed to the thread, Irreverent to the initial question. 
 Looking at all your other posts you don’t really contribute anything positive or knowledgeable that much, you just seam to post for the sake of posting, maybe to get your post count up to look an active experienced member since you only joined in February, or just maybe you just don’t have that much experience in the real world????

I was responding to an irrelevant comment, hence the content.

 

I dont post on here to garner your approval of the content so if its all the same to you I will file your comment in 'of no further interest'. 

 

As to experience well you are wrong fella. Not that its any of your business but Ive been boating on and off since I was about 11 years old, (im now 61) that includes sailing dingies, river boating and narrowboating. Both as an owner and a serial hire boater (and the son of an avid hire boater).

Edited September 4, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[ditchcrawler]

16 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

That'll be why the cross channel ferries all switched from wheel  to tiller steering ...

I think most use a little wiggly stick now, bit like Nb. Whitfield ?

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, howardang said:

For a  posher version of Tape fit a Turks Head, or you will also see on wooden wheels a Brass cap which serves the same purpose. Usually referred to as a King Spoke.

 

Howard

 

 

 

Unfortunately neither a piece of tape nor a Turks head will tell you if the wheel is already turned 360 degrees to port or starboard.

[Bod]

Could a wheel be fitted on both sides of a wide-beam?

 

Bod.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Bod said:

Could a wheel be fitted on both sides of a wide-beam?

 

Bod.

 

They are on widebeam sailing boats :