Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[StephenA]

8 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Yes and they can do 18miles before recharging so it says  https://castlenarrowboats.co.uk/electric-boats/

 

And you plug them in to charge them over night.

 

So not solar boats but plugs-ins.  

 

How much would it cost C&RT to put enough infrastructure in to put in electrical charging points every 10 miles or so across the whole of the system.

[frangar]

4 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

And you plug them in to charge them over night.

 

So not solar boats but plugs-ins.  

 

How much would it cost C&RT to put enough infrastructure in to put in electrical charging points every 10 miles or so across the whole of the system.

And you would need enough points for every boat to plug in....and what happens when you arrive with no charge left and there are no points left because the CM brigade are all plugged in.....

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

And you would need enough points for every boat to plug in....and what happens when you arrive with no charge left and there are no points left because the CM brigade are all plugged in.....

 

For 14 days.

[Mike Todd]

12 hours ago, peterboat said:

Somebody better tell that hire company that uses them that they don't work ? I watched them on you Tube the other week

Reference?

[Mike Todd]

12 hours ago, Jerra said:

Beaten by a short head, well quite a long head acctually several lengths.   I was just going to draw attention to that.

What i cannot find is such a hire boat that can do a typical current hire for up to two weeks, on any part of the system. Sure, you can hire out (or try to do so, the one I found is not yet available) an electric boat for spa it is purposes  but my point was about whether electric is feasible without significantly circumscribing where it can go and for how long. We once hired for 6 weeks.

[Flyboy]

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Reference?

I asked for link in post 320 but got no responce.

[Mike Todd]

10 hours ago, peterboat said:

There are Graham apparently for dome year's

Look to me to be all day boats.

[GUMPY]

There is an electric day boat in our local marina

http://www.boathirenorthamptonshire.com/electric-boat-hire.php

Seems to work well, built by Clive the marina owner.

I believe it was part funded by the EU, so that wont happen again...............

[Jerra]

43 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

What i cannot find is such a hire boat that can do a typical current hire for up to two weeks, on any part of the system. Sure, you can hire out (or try to do so, the one I found is not yet available) an electric boat for spa it is purposes  but my point was about whether electric is feasible without significantly circumscribing where it can go and for how long. We once hired for 6 weeks.

Most posters seem to be conveniently skating over the fact that if the human race is to survive we will not be able to continue as we have been.   Any form of cruising is for many I suspect far better than no cruising.

 

If electric boats are going to be the way to do it things will start slowly, as they currently are days boats those on the B & M.   It is those of us boaters who are insiting on not having to change what they currently do that will slow up/prevent the rpogress required.

 

If that attitude had been taken in the past we would all still be boating with horses.

[DandV]

Burning fuel produces a range of emissions with a range of harmful short term, long term and cumulative effects to all life on the planet.

It is essential that we prioritise reductions on the easiest wins first, starting with the really toxic particulates, and the biggest sources, and the easiest fixes.

Total eradication of combustion emissions is never going to occur. Lightning will still start fires.

Getting rid of solid fuel heaters in lieu of diesel and gas burning stoves will considerably reduce the most harmful emissions at relatively low cost. 

I am sure that lower emission high speed diesel engines suitable for small static plant and narrowboats will soon become available because their manufacturers will respond to pressure to supply suitable engines for such a large international market much of which will remain remote from electrical supply.

So expect once these engines are available that new plant and boats will be required to fit engines to the latest available emission standard and perhaps also restrictions on where old plant and boats can be operated. 

I am also sure that exemptions to operate vintage plant such as steam locomotives, and gardner diesels on historic craft will be put in place. However transplanting veteran diesels into new build will probably not be accepted. 

The cost of providing and maintaining a publicly owned electrical charging network for recreational boats is most likely prohibitive for the forseeable future. . The same money could be spent elsewhere to reduce emissions a huge amount more effectively. My guess is one major motorway service station would pump more fuel in a year then used by  the entire inland fleet. It would only require a very modest gain in  the efficiency of aircraft propulsion and aircraft use out of just Heathrow to totally eclipse all the emissions from the inland waterways fleet.

Advice, do submit,  advocating realistic pragmatic emission reduction measures. 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by DandV

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, DandV said:

However transplanting veteran diesels into new build will probably not be accepted.

I believe that is already not allowed under the RCD

[DandV]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

I believe that is already not allowed under the RCD

My understanding was not allowed but enforcement in in abeyance. Needs to be clarified which can be offered as a concession to doing your bit.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, DandV said:

My understanding was not allowed but enforcement in in abeyance. Needs to be clarified which can be offered as a concession to doing your bit.

In the case of NB's they can be self built and the decision to comply with the RCD is voluntary anyway (as long as it is not sold etc etc etc)

[DandV]

If your government really wants to do something about diesel emissions I would suggest just completing just the deferred rail electrifications would probably do more then banning all diesel propulsion on the inland waterways network. 

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Loddon said:

I believe it was part funded by the EU, so that wont happen again...............

The show's not over until the fat lady sings

 

Having said that, given that climate change action is probably seen as a vote winner, you might see Boris hand over a few million as a token gesture that he can multiply in his propaganda.

[GUMPY]

8 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

The show's not over until the fat lady sings

 

Having said that, given that climate change action is probably seen as a vote winner, you might see Boris hand over a few million as a token gesture that he can multiply in his propaganda.

Maybe we could get him to fund our boat electrification

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, DandV said:

Burning fuel produces a range of emissions with a range of harmful short term, long term and cumulative effects to all life on the planet.

It is essential that we prioritise reductions on the easiest wins first, starting with the really toxic particulates, and the biggest sources, and the easiest fixes.

Total eradication of combustion emissions is never going to occur. Lightning will still start fires.

Getting rid of solid fuel heaters in lieu of diesel and gas burning stoves will considerably reduce the most harmful emissions at relatively low cost. 

I am sure that lower emission high speed diesel engines suitable for small static plant and narrowboats will soon become available because their manufacturers will respond to pressure to supply suitable engines for such a large international market much of which will remain remote from electrical supply.

So expect once these engines are available that new plant and boats will be required to fit engines to the latest available emission standard and perhaps also restrictions on where old plant and boats can be operated. 

I am also sure that exemptions to operate vintage plant such as steam locomotives, and gardner diesels on historic craft will be put in place. However transplanting veteran diesels into new build will probably not be accepted. 

The cost of providing and maintaining a publicly owned electrical charging network for recreational boats is most likely prohibitive for the forseeable future. . The same money could be spent elsewhere to reduce emissions a huge amount more effectively. My guess is one major motorway service station would pump more fuel in a year then used by  the entire inland fleet. It would only require a very modest gain in  the efficiency of aircraft propulsion and aircraft use out of just Heathrow to totally eclipse all the emissions from the inland waterways fleet.

Advice, do submit,  advocating realistic pragmatic emission reduction measures. 

 

 

 

Modern high speed diesels in boats like ours can't work, and even if they could the pollution is still there, far better to buckle down and find something different. I was reading about new batteries today that are so power dense that they will triple the range of cars, and they are a reality now and will be in vehicles next year. High speed charging and triple the life of current lithium batteries puts a lot of arguments to bed! 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I was reading about new batteries today that are so power dense that they will triple the range of cars, and they are a reality now and will be in vehicles next year. 

 

Of course they will! Got a reference please? I’d like to read this article too, and find out who is developing them so i can follow it up. Thanks. 

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Of course they will! Got a reference please? I’d like to read this article too, and find out who is developing them so i can follow it up. Thanks. 

It was something like XPND on my Google feed its an USA company but can't find it now. Its using perforated disc to increase performance and capacity its fully patented to protect it

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, DandV said:

Burning fuel produces a range of emissions with a range of harmful short term, long term and cumulative effects to all life on the planet.

It is essential that we prioritise reductions on the easiest wins first, starting with the really toxic particulates, and the biggest sources, and the easiest fixes.

Total eradication of combustion emissions is never going to occur. Lightning will still start fires.

Getting rid of solid fuel heaters in lieu of diesel and gas burning stoves will considerably reduce the most harmful emissions at relatively low cost. 

I am sure that lower emission high speed diesel engines suitable for small static plant and narrowboats will soon become available because their manufacturers will respond to pressure to supply suitable engines for such a large international market much of which will remain remote from electrical supply.

So expect once these engines are available that new plant and boats will be required to fit engines to the latest available emission standard and perhaps also restrictions on where old plant and boats can be operated. 

I am also sure that exemptions to operate vintage plant such as steam locomotives, and gardner diesels on historic craft will be put in place. However transplanting veteran diesels into new build will probably not be accepted. 

The cost of providing and maintaining a publicly owned electrical charging network for recreational boats is most likely prohibitive for the forseeable future. . The same money could be spent elsewhere to reduce emissions a huge amount more effectively. My guess is one major motorway service station would pump more fuel in a year then used by  the entire inland fleet. It would only require a very modest gain in  the efficiency of aircraft propulsion and aircraft use out of just Heathrow to totally eclipse all the emissions from the inland waterways fleet.

Advice, do submit,  advocating realistic pragmatic emission reduction measures. 

 

 

 

 

That is pretty much what I put in my response to the consultation.

 

That the Government need to concentrate on the low hanging fruit on the emissions tree (solid fuel stoves, cheap air flights, transcontinental shipping etc), rather than proposing something that will cost many millions (mains shoreline infrastructure for recharging propulsion batteries and in winter electrc heating, scrapping cheaper boats because it will not be cost effective to convert them, and bringing in pollution risks as boater refill generstors to charge their batteries if there are insufficient shoreline points on the network) for minimal reduction of emissions.

Edited July 23, 2019 by cuthound
Spillung

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, Loddon said:

Maybe we could get him to fund our boat electrification

 

Given his track record, he would probably suggest a grant is only available if boaters use rechargeable AAA batteries . ?

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Modern high speed diesels in boats like ours can't work, and even if they could the pollution is still there, far better to buckle down and find something different. I was reading about new batteries today that are so power dense that they will triple the range of cars, and they are a reality now and will be in vehicles next year. High speed charging and triple the life of current lithium batteries puts a lot of arguments to bed! 

 

Modern high speed diesel are now producing less emissions than modern petrol engined cars.

 

https://www.petrolprices.com/news/diesels-arent-actually-dirty-new-tests-show/

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6733271/Are-diesel-cars-really-dirty-Tests-reveal-models-produce-zero-NOx-emissions.html

 

The Government has demonized all diesels when in fact Euro 6 temp standards produce real world results that are cleaner than the equivalent petrol engined.

 

Politicians cannot be trusted to understand anything even remotely technical.

 

With regard to battery energy density, the most energy dense batteries, aluminium air batteries currently have the highest demonstrable energy density, but are primary cells (non rechargeable but 99% recyclable) and only currently in military use.

 

Everyday for the last 30 years someone claims to have invented a better battery, but only lithium ion batteries have made it into the commercial arena (and it took them 30 years from concept to widescale introduction).

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by cuthound

[carlt]

On 12/07/2019 at 15:58, frangar said:

 

...there’s a growing movement against faceless politicians telling us what’s best for us. 

 

I thought it was a growing movement supporting faceless politicians telling us to ignore what scientists and (so-called) experts are saying and to do what's best for the faceless politician's offshore investments.

[GUMPY]

55 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Given his track record, he would probably suggest a grant is only available if boaters use rechargeable AAA batteries . ?

Aren't Tesla batteries made up of cells the size of AA batteries?

[Detling]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

 High speed charging and triple the life of current lithium batteries puts a lot of arguments to bed! 

You still need your kilowatts per mile and they have to come from somewhere, not everyone has room for a mega solar array, and in winter you would only get a fraction of your needs. Hire boats do go out in winter, Christmas being a popular time. How do they get electric for cruising 6 hours a day, every day, not from solar. Fast chargers are all very well but you need a humongous cable to feed the charge point, or have to do as the Chinese do for their e-bus stops, a 16 amp normal mains feed charging super capacitors at the stop to allow a 600 volt 400 amp fast charge to the bus whilst the passengers get on/off. there has to be a gap of several minutes before you can charge the next bus. but you don't get many 16 amp sockets on the towpath.