Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[cuthound]

26 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Aren't Tesla batteries made up of cells the size of AA batteries?

 

Yes but they are made especially for Tesla by Panosonic.

2 minutes ago, Detling said:

You still need your kilowatts per mile and they have to come from somewhere, not everyone has room for a mega solar array, and in winter you would only get a fraction of your needs. Hire boats do go out in winter, Christmas being a popular time. How do they get electric for cruising 6 hours a day, every day, not from solar. Fast chargers are all very well but you need a humongous cable to feed the charge point, or have to do as the Chinese do for their e-bus stops, a 16 amp normal mains feed charging super capacitors at the stop to allow a 600 volt 400 amp fast charge to the bus whilst the passengers get on/off. there has to be a gap of several minutes before you can charge the next bus. but you don't get many 16 amp sockets on the towpath.

 

Wouldn't work in London where you wait ages for a bus and then three come at once. ??

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Modern high speed diesel are now producing less emissions than modern petrol engined cars.

 

https://www.petrolprices.com/news/diesels-arent-actually-dirty-new-tests-show/

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6733271/Are-diesel-cars-really-dirty-Tests-reveal-models-produce-zero-NOx-emissions.html

 

The Government has demonized all diesels when in fact Euro 6 temp standards produce real world results that are cleaner than the equivalent petrol engined.

 

Politicians cannot be trusted to understand anything even remotely technical.

 

With regard to battery energy density, the most energy dense batteries, aluminium air batteries currently have the highest demonstrable energy density, but are primary cells (non rechargeable but 99% recyclable) and only currently in military use.

 

Everyday for the last 30 years someone claims to have invented a better battery, but only lithium ion batteries have made it into the commercial arena (and it took them 30 years from concept to widescale introduction).

 

 

10 minutes ago, Detling said:

You still need your kilowatts per mile and they have to come from somewhere, not everyone has room for a mega solar array, and in winter you would only get a fraction of your needs. Hire boats do go out in winter, Christmas being a popular time. How do they get electric for cruising 6 hours a day, every day, not from solar. Fast chargers are all very well but you need a humongous cable to feed the charge point, or have to do as the Chinese do for their e-bus stops, a 16 amp normal mains feed charging super capacitors at the stop to allow a 600 volt 400 amp fast charge to the bus whilst the passengers get on/off. there has to be a gap of several minutes before you can charge the next bus. but you don't get many 16 amp sockets on the towpath.

But Diesel's still produce more pollution than electric propulsion as the opportunity is there for it to be green, which no diesel can ever be! The reality is that electrification is coming fast whether we like it or not and we are just collateral damage in the bigger picture

[nebulae]

Have I misunderstood .If I plant my farm with trees,I will gain carbon credits.I can then offset these against my Range Rover and be carbon neutral? Who drempt this idea up?

[MtB]

9 hours ago, StephenA said:

 

And you plug them in to charge them over night.

 

So not solar boats but plugs-ins.  

 

How much would it cost C&RT to put enough infrastructure in to put in electrical charging points every 10 miles or so across the whole of the system.

 

I think CRT with their stunning ability to miss the point with their electric propulsion licence discount, would soon realise the cheapest way to fit all these electric charging points would be to install a whopping big diesel genset every ten miles along the system.

 

Only 200 would be needed. Then the electric boats would be perfectly viable. 

[Detling]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think CRT with their stunning ability to miss the point with their electric propulsion licence discount, would soon realise the cheapest way to fit all these electric charging points would be to install a whopping big diesel genset every ten miles along the system.

 

Why stop at a genset why not a small nuclear power station.

[cuthound]

36 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

But Diesel's still produce more pollution than electric propulsion as the opportunity is there for it to be green, which no diesel can ever be! The reality is that electrification is coming fast whether we like it or not and we are just collateral damage in the bigger picture

 

Debatable if you include the pollution and energy needed to mine the raw materials needed for batteries and electric motors.

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/battery-batteries-electric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/

 

https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/17435/Will-Your-Electric-Car-Save-the-World-or-Wreck-It.aspx

[Graham Davis]

8 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Look to me to be all day boats.

Have you ever seen day boats with beds, toilets and showers?
I can assure you they are not day boats.

[ditchcrawler]

21 hours ago, Jerra said:

Beaten by a short head, well quite a long head acctually several lengths.   I was just going to draw attention to that.

I saw a chap renovating dead batteries on youtube 

 

[Mike Todd]

9 hours ago, Jerra said:

Most posters seem to be conveniently skating over the fact that if the human race is to survive we will not be able to continue as we have been.   Any form of cruising is for many I suspect far better than no cruising.

 

If electric boats are going to be the way to do it things will start slowly, as they currently are days boats those on the B & M.   It is those of us boaters who are insiting on not having to change what they currently do that will slow up/prevent the rpogress required.

 

If that attitude had been taken in the past we would all still be boating with horses.

I am not for one moment suggesting that change is not necessary, indeed inevitable. However, there is also a reality to politics that has to be taken into account (that's the real story of Canute) and claiming that you have solved one problem when in reality (and you know it) you have solved a different one, does not help anyone. The problem is not how build a boat that can be moved by electricity, much as I would like it, but one of how to concentrate energy as effectively as nature did over millions of years when  it created oil. As I said before, in realpolitik going backwards is not an option. (That's the mistake that the simplistic brand of Brexiteers keep making. Yes we can leave the EU but only by going forward from where we are in 2019 not back to where we were in 1945)

1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

Have you ever seen day boats with beds, toilets and showers?
I can assure you they are not day boats.

Must have been the way I framed the google search - typical: http://www.boathirenorthamptonshire.com/electric-boat-hire.php

Edited July 23, 2019 by Mike Todd

[Flyboy]

On 19/07/2019 at 21:16, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It might be great stuff but it isn't ULS, is it!!

I phoned Crown oils on Friday asking about ULS 28sec Kerosene. They said they don't have any & never have because it's not produced. They do have clean burn kerosene but has a higher sulpur content than ULS Diesel. It used to be the case that Kerosene had a lower sulphur content than gas oil so was better in oil fired heaters like Ebersplutters/Webastos. This is no longer the case and ULS diesel is the best for these heaters. I also got confirmation that red diesel is just coloured white. So anyone who says they are buying ULS Kerosene is talking c**p.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Flyboy

[frangar]

7 hours ago, peterboat said:

It was something like XPND on my Google feed its an USA company but can't find it now. Its using perforated disc to increase performance and capacity its fully patented to protect it

Apparently in the 1950s nuclear power was the answer to all our energy problems and electricity was going to be too cheap to bother metering....not everything that’s promised becomes reality....maybe a reality check would be a good thing for you as well. 

[StephenA]

6 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Modern high speed diesel are now producing less emissions than modern petrol engined cars.

 

https://www.petrolprices.com/news/diesels-arent-actually-dirty-new-tests-show/

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6733271/Are-diesel-cars-really-dirty-Tests-reveal-models-produce-zero-NOx-emissions.html

 

The Government has demonized all diesels when in fact Euro 6 temp standards produce real world results that are cleaner than the equivalent petrol engined.

 

Politicians cannot be trusted to understand anything even remotely technical.

 

With regard to battery energy density, the most energy dense batteries, aluminium air batteries currently have the highest demonstrable energy density, but are primary cells (non rechargeable but 99% recyclable) and only currently in military use.

 

Everyday for the last 30 years someone claims to have invented a better battery, but only lithium ion batteries have made it into the commercial arena (and it took them 30 years from concept to widescale introduction).

 

But modern diesels need to go through all sorts of special cycles to keep running. Many modern diesels only doing short runs end up with the engine in limp home mode. Put a modern diesel in a canalboat and its just going to die.

[DandV]

27 minutes ago, StephenA said:

But modern diesels need to go through all sorts of special cycles to keep running. Many modern diesels only doing short runs end up with the engine in limp home mode. Put a modern diesel in a canalboat and its just going to die.

The market for low emission diesels that spend a good deal of their running, running hard and hot, is huge, such as in motor vehicles and coastal craft. Hence regulatory authorities and  manufacturers  have spent a lot of effort in setting and then constantly upgrading the standards and meeting these standards for engines into this market.

There is still a substantial market though for diesel engines, on mobile and stationary plant, that need to be available, but may do little running at high power. Diggers, cranes, portable generators, air compressors and inland waterways craft. 

If regulators insist on lower emissions for these engines, which they will, solutions will be found to make these engines compliant. The international market is large enough.

I think it is a case of panic slowly. But also submitting for pragmatic, achievable reductions,  this will achieve more then either total opposition to any change, or promoting unviable or non available options. 

[Richard10002]

5 hours ago, nebulae said:

Have I misunderstood .If I plant my farm with trees,I will gain carbon credits.I can then offset these against my Range Rover and be carbon neutral? Who drempt this idea up?

I heard a radio interview a while ago where it seems that the electricity suppliers buy carbon offset tokens very cheaply, and this enables them to call themselves wholly or partly green.

 

I can’t  recall the detail or specifics, but the interviewer suggested it sounded like a scam, ant the interviewer all but agreed.

 

I don’t know where these carbon offset tokens come from, nor why they are cheap.

[TheBiscuits]

21 minutes ago, DandV said:

The market for low emission diesels that spend a good deal of their running, running hard and hot, is huge, such as in motor vehicles and coastal craft. Hence regulatory authorities and  manufacturers  have spent a lot of effort in setting and then constantly upgrading the standards and meeting these standards for engines into this market.

There is still a substantial market though for diesel engines, on mobile and stationary plant, that need to be available, but may do little running at high power. Diggers, cranes, portable generators, air compressors and inland waterways craft. 

If regulators insist on lower emissions for these engines, which they will, solutions will be found to make these engines compliant. The international market is large enough.

I think it is a case of panic slowly. But also submitting for pragmatic, achievable reductions,  this will achieve more then either total opposition to any change, or promoting unviable or non available options. 

Surely the answer then is to put smaller engines in plant or boats and work them much harder.  The trouble with this is trying to sell a narrowboat with a 10 bhp engine to someone who thinks they need 55 bhp for the South Oxford ...

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Surely the answer then is to put smaller engines in plant or boats and work them much harder.  The trouble with this is trying to sell a narrowboat with a 10 bhp engine to someone who thinks they need 55 bhp for the South Oxford ...

 

So sell them 5.5 engines 10hp each....

?

[StephenA]

1 hour ago, DandV said:

The market for low emission diesels that spend a good deal of their running, running hard and hot, is huge, such as in motor vehicles and coastal craft. Hence regulatory authorities and  manufacturers  have spent a lot of effort in setting and then constantly upgrading the standards and meeting these standards for engines into this market.

There is still a substantial market though for diesel engines, on mobile and stationary plant, that need to be available, but may do little running at high power. Diggers, cranes, portable generators, air compressors and inland waterways craft. 

If regulators insist on lower emissions for these engines, which they will, solutions will be found to make these engines compliant. The international market is large enough.

I think it is a case of panic slowly. But also submitting for pragmatic, achievable reductions,  this will achieve more then either total opposition to any change, or promoting unviable or non available options. 

Is it possible to build a modern engine that is "clean" and provides the following (BMC 1.5 specs)

 

Maximum BHP intermittent 39 at 3500 rpm

Maximum BHP Continuous 30 at 3000 rpm

Maximum engine torque 59 ib. ft. at 2500 rpm

From the torque and BHP curves, at a cruising rpm of 1500 it has 15 bhp and 50 ft. lb. torque. At 2000 rpm it’s about 22 bhp and 57 lb. ft.

 

Compared to a modern engine

 

My Volvo S60 D5 (Euro III )  2.4

 

Maximum power - Output - Horsepower : 185 PS or 182 bhp or 136 kW @ 4000 rpm (Red line is 4500)
Maximum torque : 400 Nm or 295 lb.ft @ 2000 rpm

and it idles at about 700rpm.

But it does need an intercooler to run properly - not sure where you'd fit one of those on a narrowboat where it would actually do anything useful.

 

If you produced a modern small engine running under load as a sort of black box producing heated water, 12V, 240V and power for an electric transmission  you could have something that could be dropped into quite a lot of boats quite simply.

 

I know its not emissions free but......

 

 

[StephenA]

10 hours ago, peterboat said:

Modern high speed diesels in boats like ours can't work, and even if they could the pollution is still there, far better to buckle down and find something different. I was reading about new batteries today that are so power dense that they will triple the range of cars, and they are a reality now and will be in vehicles next year. High speed charging and triple the life of current lithium batteries puts a lot of arguments to bed! 

There is still the big question of how do you charge them. I'd be happy to move to electric propulsion but more efficient, faster charging, batteries doesn't help if you can't get the power into them in the first place. Isn't that actually the problem? I can put enough batteries in my boat to cruise for 8 hours and run my basic electrics for the night. But how do i put that power back in so that I get up the next morning and set off?

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, StephenA said:

There is still the big question of how do you charge them. I'd be happy to move to electric propulsion but more efficient, faster charging, batteries doesn't help if you can't get the power into them in the first place. Isn't that actually the problem? I can put enough batteries in my boat to cruise for 8 hours and run my basic electrics for the night. But how do i put that power back in so that I get up the next morning and set off?

 

5kW of moon panels, obvs....

 

 

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Is it possible to build a modern engine that is "clean" and provides the following (BMC 1.5 specs)

 

Maximum BHP intermittent 39 at 3500 rpm

Maximum BHP Continuous 30 at 3000 rpm

Maximum engine torque 59 ib. ft. at 2500 rpm

From the torque and BHP curves, at a cruising rpm of 1500 it has 15 bhp and 50 ft. lb. torque. At 2000 rpm it’s about 22 bhp and 57 lb. ft.

 

Compared to a modern engine

 

My Volvo S60 D5 (Euro III )  2.4

 

Maximum power - Output - Horsepower : 185 PS or 182 bhp or 136 kW @ 4000 rpm (Red line is 4500)
Maximum torque : 400 Nm or 295 lb.ft @ 2000 rpm

and it idles at about 700rpm.

But it does need an intercooler to run properly - not sure where you'd fit one of those on a narrowboat where it would actually do anything useful.

 

If you produced a modern small engine running under load as a sort of black box producing heated water, 12V, 240V and power for an electric transmission  you could have something that could be dropped into quite a lot of boats quite simply.

 

I know its not emissions free but......

 

 

My electric motor produces more usable power than the BMC at the 1000 and 2000 rpm limits. It is direct drive so 600 rpm is cruising speed and 1200 is flat out! I think in a narrowboat it would be very effective and the rpm less as well st cruising speed. I have been asked to convert one so maybe we will soon know how good it is

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, StephenA said:

There is still the big question of how do you charge them. I'd be happy to move to electric propulsion but more efficient, faster charging, batteries doesn't help if you can't get the power into them in the first place. Isn't that actually the problem? I can put enough batteries in my boat to cruise for 8 hours and run my basic electrics for the night. But how do i put that power back in so that I get up the next morning and set off?

I have just done 8 days of ,8 hour cruising with a mate neither of us could see the attraction! We saw nothing of the countryside we passed through, both of us would have been happy with 3 hour days honestly it became a real chore. So you would have to settle for 2 kW of solar and shorter cruising days. Remember that what we do isn't life or death stuff and most of the country couldn't care less about what we do

[DandV]

4 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Is it possible to build a modern engine that is "clean" and provides the following (BMC 1.5 specs)

 

Maximum BHP intermittent 39 at 3500 rpm

Maximum BHP Continuous 30 at 3000 rpm

Maximum engine torque 59 ib. ft. at 2500 rpm

From the torque and BHP curves, at a cruising rpm of 1500 it has 15 bhp and 50 ft. lb. torque. At 2000 rpm it’s about 22 bhp and 57 lb. ft.

 

Compared to a modern engine

 

My Volvo S60 D5 (Euro III )  2.4

 

Maximum power - Output - Horsepower : 185 PS or 182 bhp or 136 kW @ 4000 rpm (Red line is 4500)
Maximum torque : 400 Nm or 295 lb.ft @ 2000 rpm

and it idles at about 700rpm.

But it does need an intercooler to run properly - not sure where you'd fit one of those on a narrowboat where it would actually do anything useful.

 

If you produced a modern small engine running under load as a sort of black box producing heated water, 12V, 240V and power for an electric transmission  you could have something that could be dropped into quite a lot of boats quite simply.

 

I know its not emissions free but......

 

 

I  think major engine manufacturers, will already be engaging with regulators to develop workable specifications for lower emission engines to provide for  the specific wider range of operating conditions required for much industrial and agricultural plant and tractors that cannot be met by engines designed automotive and general marine use. 

I simply do not think that Kuboto, and Yanmar to name just two manufacturers, will cede this important part of their business. What I think will happen initially is the development of some bolt on hardware to the exhaust manifold to further process exhaust gasses. Another bloody thing to maintain but perhaps better then joining peter and his boat waiting for the sun to come out or instead at the queue at a broken charging station awaiting for CART to repair it after parts arrive next week.

 

 

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, DandV said:

I  think major engine manufacturers, will already be engaging with regulators to develop workable specifications for lower emission engines to provide for  the specific wider range of operating conditions required for much industrial and agricultural plant and tractors that cannot be met by engines designed automotive and general marine use. 

I simply do not think that Kuboto, and Yanmar to name just two manufacturers, will cede this important part of their business. What I think will happen initially is the development of some bolt on hardware to the exhaust manifold to further process exhaust gasses. Another bloody thing to maintain but perhaps better then joining peter and his boat waiting for the sun to come out or instead at the queue at a broken charging station awaiting for CART to repair it after parts arrive next week.

 

 

Or maybe the consultation says that diesel engine power is banned in inland boats. Vi can assure you that I have repaired modern diesel engines for many years and your simple bolt on solution is pie in the sky stuff! Engine makers have spent billions failing to clean up Diesel's, and I have seen many bodges  removing the failed clean up equipment to try to get their car just to run!

[cuthound]

12 hours ago, StephenA said:

But modern diesels need to go through all sorts of special cycles to keep running. Many modern diesels only doing short runs end up with the engine in limp home mode. Put a modern diesel in a canalboat and its just going to die.

 

Modern diesels need to regenerate their Diesel Particulate Filters periodically.

 

This is done one of two ways.

 

1. Active regeneration, where the ECU injects diesel into the exhaust and sets fire to it to burn out the accumulated soot. If you stop the engine before the cycle is complete it eventually goes into limp home mode. However it is not load dependent providing the engine is up to temperature.

 

2. Passive regeneration, where the engine is worked so hard that the exhaust gets hot enough to self ignite the soot. In reality this ONLY occurs at autobahn speeds or race tracks.

 

I'm pretty sure a modern diesel with a DPF could work in a narrowboat providing  you can get it hot enough. Easily done by temporarily restricting the cooling whilst the DPF is regenerating.

 

As @DandV says, the market for small industrial diesels is too large for the manufacturers to lose.

Edited July 24, 2019 by cuthound
Spillung

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Modern diesels need to regenerate their Diesel Particulate Filters periodically.

 

This is done one of two ways.

 

1. Active regeneration, where the ECU injects diesel into the exhaust and sets fire to it to burn out the accumulated soot. If you stop the engine before the cycle is complete it eventually goes into limp home mode. However it is not load dependent providing the engine is up to temperature.

 

2. Passive regeneration, where the engine is worked so hard that the exhaust gets hot enough to self ignite the soot. In reality this ONLY occurs at autobahn speeds or race tracks.

 

I'm pretty sure a modern diesel with a DPF could work in a narrowboat providing  you can get it hot enough. Easily done by temporarily restricting the cooling whilst the DPF is regenerating.

 

As @DandV says, the market for small industrial diesels is too large for the manufacturers to lose.

Or they could just go the LPG route, cleaner and quieter and not as much stench and smoke, their is always a clean alternative that doesnt involve diesel and NOX which is why this consultation is happening