Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[StephenA]

18 hours ago, peterboat said:

I have just done 8 days of ,8 hour cruising with a mate neither of us could see the attraction! We saw nothing of the countryside we passed through, both of us would have been happy with 3 hour days honestly it became a real chore. So you would have to settle for 2 kW of solar and shorter cruising days. Remember that what we do isn't life or death stuff and most of the country couldn't care less about what we do

The fact that you only like short days and your chosen power schema works for you doesn't mean it works for others. Myself, and many others I know, enjoy doing long days - we enjoy the scenery as we cruise by.  I suspect if you told most people hiring boats that they could do 4 hours per day max that it would pretty much kill the hire business dead.

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, StephenA said:

The fact that you only like short days and your chosen power schema works for you doesn't mean it works for others. Myself, and many others I know, enjoy doing long days - we enjoy the scenery as we cruise by.  I suspect if you told most people hiring boats that they could do 4 hours per day max that it would pretty much kill the hire business dead.

A lot of holiday cruising rings need more than 4 hours per day, unless you can afford an extra week - money & time.

[peterboat]

5 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

But that's the point, you have not shown that it (where 'it' = the crusing pattern most people want to do and maybe even enjoy) can be done. What you have shown is that something else can be done. As an antipodean post just a while back said, that's nit helpful.

I dont have to do anything at all my boat does what I want it to do, you however have to convince a civil servant that your ten hours cruising daily, with the attendant pollution, is important enough for people to be ill and perhaps die from it? Or the civil servant might look at boat builders and other people like me that have converted boats and say yes it can be done without pollution

[frangar]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

I dont have to do anything at all my boat does what I want it to do, you however have to convince a civil servant that your ten hours cruising daily, with the attendant pollution, is important enough for people to be ill and perhaps die from it? Or the civil servant might look at boat builders and other people like me that have converted boats and say yes it can be done without pollution

But it can’t be done without pollution...as others have said!! We could all stop cruising entirely and not need engines of any sort but that’s not the point we are raising. You seem to conveniently avoid all the questions about length of cruising...days with no sun...winter...and so on. Your method of boating is far from everyone’s yet you expect us all to agree that your way is the answer....well it’s far from it for the foreseeable future. 

[peterboat]

16 minutes ago, frangar said:

But it can’t be done without pollution...as others have said!! We could all stop cruising entirely and not need engines of any sort but that’s not the point we are raising. You seem to conveniently avoid all the questions about length of cruising...days with no sun...winter...and so on. Your method of boating is far from everyone’s yet you expect us all to agree that your way is the answer....well it’s far from it for the foreseeable future. 

According to the consultation its 2025 so you have 5 and a half years.

I will say this for the last time its not the governments fault this is due to a court case which the government lost so by law they have to get NOX to safe limits and if that means that people cant cruise for fun in their boat with a diesel engine, then thats what they will do, peoples health and lives are more important  to most people

[frangar]

Just now, peterboat said:

According to the consultation its 2025 so you have 5 and a half years.

I will say this for the last time its not the governments fault this is due to a court case which the government lost so by law they have to get NOX to safe limits and if that means that people cant cruise for fun in their boat with a diesel engine, then thats what they will do, peoples health and lives are more important  to most people

So you have no answers...

 

If you think NOX will be reduced dramatically by stopping boating you are more delusional than I thought. There are many many more Diesel engines in everything from diggers to back

up generators...and they aren’t going to disappear either. What’s your magic cure for those applications? 

[carlt]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

According to the consultation its 2025 so you have 5 and a half years.

5 and a half years ago people said that there wouldn't be a usable network of car charging points but now every motorway service station has them, you can charge your car while shopping and there are charging points in the remotest parts of the UK. 

CRT could even exploit this and get funding to install charge points and maintain the towpath like BW did with the cable laying in the 90s.

If the government are keen to make electric boating workable then CRT should exploit this as a revenue earner... Win win. 

[StephenA]

4 minutes ago, carlt said:

5 and a half years ago people said that there wouldn't be a usable network of car charging points but now every motorway service station has them, you can charge your car while shopping and there are charging points in the remotest parts of the UK. 

 

Apart from the fact that for most of the population there still isn't a viable electric car solution. I have no way to charge at home (on street parking), and work do not have the space to put in bigger parking bays and put in charging circuits in - so an electric car for me is a non-starter.

[carlt]

2 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Apart from the fact that for most of the population there still isn't a viable electric car solution. I have no way to charge at home (on street parking), and work do not have the space to put in bigger parking bays and put in charging circuits in - so an electric car for me is a non-starter.

No me neither at the moment but my point is that progress has been made and continues to be made. 

A large proportion of the boating population do have access to electricity at their home mooring though and, given incentive grants, towpath charge points could be easily installed. 

[TheBiscuits]

19 minutes ago, carlt said:

No me neither at the moment but my point is that progress has been made and continues to be made. 

A large proportion of the boating population do have access to electricity at their home mooring though and, given incentive grants, towpath charge points could be easily installed. 

Interesting point.  I'm currently (pun intended!) moored at Saul Junction, right next to the CRT pay and display carpark.  Why not put the electric car charging points on the carpark spaces nearest the canal, and allow boats to use them if needed. 

 

Obviously the cables can't be too long due to voltage drop, and you'd have to make sure that drunk boaters didn't drop a megacharger cable into the canal ...

Edited July 24, 2019 by TheBiscuits
Spellink

[Graham Davis]

21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Obviously the cables can't be too long due to voltage drop, and you'd have to make sure that drunk boaters didn't drop a megacharger cable into the canal ...

On the Zoe our Car Club have just bought they are not "live" until both ends are plugged in.

[TheBiscuits]

10 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

On the Zoe our Car Club have just bought they are not "live" until both ends are plugged in.

That makes good sense, but do Zoe's use megachargers?  I thought they were Tesla specific.

 

They are the spec for the Tesla Semi, their articulated lorry, and claim to be able to provide 500 miles of range in 30 minutes, so around 1.5 MWh ...  or call it 130,000A at 12V so it makes sense to boaters!

 

(Yes, I know they don't run at 12V, but it helps people understand the power demand ... )

 

On that aside, it's 6,500A at 240V, and most modern houses have a supply of 60A - 100A at 240V.

 

So to run a truck we are talking a housing estate of 65 to 90 houses' worth of electricity demand ... or realistically an estate of 150-200 houses given the real world demand for power.

 

 

 

 

[StephenA]

6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

That makes good sense, but do Zoe's use megachargers?  I thought they were Tesla specific.

 

They are the spec for the Tesla Semi, their articulated lorry, and claim to be able to provide 500 miles of range in 30 minutes, so around 1.5 MWh ...  or call it 130,000A at 12V so it makes sense to boaters!

 

(Yes, I know they don't run at 12V, but it helps people understand the power demand ... )

 

On that aside, it's 6,500A at 240V, and most modern houses have a supply of 60A - 100A at 240V.

 

So to run a truck we are talking a housing estate of 65 to 90 houses' worth of electricity demand ... or realistically an estate of 150-200 houses given the real world demand for power.

 

 

 

 

I did a calculation based on the Government's plan to get rid of gas powered CH. In our street at peak load time in the early evening in winter when everyone has the CH on and the cars plugged in on rapid charge we would need 240MW.

 

When it comes to canal charging you'd really need rapid charge (well 3-4 hour charging). Look at Gnosall - all those visitor moorings. Imagine each and every boat on those moorings charging overnight.  How much power would that be?

 

I just can't ever see the canal system getting the infrastructure to allow all the moving boats to charge up each and every night.

[StephenA]

What we need is Mr Fusion - we could run it off plastic bags ?

[Rob-M]

Popular spots like Tixall Wide could be enhanced with 20 charging points and what about the boaters that like to more in the middle of nowhere...?

[frangar]

9 hours ago, carlt said:

5 and a half years ago people said that there wouldn't be a usable network of car charging points but now every motorway service station has them, you can charge your car while shopping and there are charging points in the remotest parts of the UK. 

CRT could even exploit this and get funding to install charge points and maintain the towpath like BW did with the cable laying in the 90s.

If the government are keen to make electric boating workable then CRT should exploit this as a revenue earner... Win win. 

If every car in a motorway service area was electric there would be a bit of a queue for the charge points....most areas only have a couple....mind you shares in Costa would be a good investment. 

[WotEver]

On 23/07/2019 at 09:37, Loddon said:

There is an electric day boat in our local marina

http://www.boathirenorthamptonshire.com/electric-boat-hire.php

They need a proof reader...

[Flyboy]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

Popular spots like Tixall Wide could be enhanced with 20 charging points and what about the boaters that like to more in the middle of nowhere...?

Absolutely not going to happen any time soon. The cost of getting cabling to these remote spots would cost millions.  On the L&L from Burscough to Liverpool there are many swing bridges operated by batteries because of the locations are in the middle of nowhere. These bridges are charged from a car battery charger which runs off inadeqate cabling. It's fine for a few boats a day but on busy days the system can't cope and the there's is 24 hr stoppage to recharge. Waterways say the cost of cabling and posibly a small sub station is not viable wthin their budget.  Most marinas can't cope with 16amp supplies at the moment so I can't see any forking out for sub stations and cable upgrades. Somewhere like Mercia marina on the T&M would never be able to cope with 400 electric boats charging at the same time without massive investment. If we are forced to have electric boats I think a lot of marinas will shut down and a lot of owners will give up boating.

[GUMPY]

20 minutes ago, WotEver said:

They need a proof reader...

Indeed they do speeelink is well amiss.

I will mention it to Clive when I next see him

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Indeed they do speeelink is well amiss.

I will mention it to Clive when I next see him

And “enjoy a peace of the waterways” and “is equipt with” and “at the front of the boat
Where you” etc. 

[WotEver]

 

...”If your looking for Boat Hire”, 

[carlt]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

If every car in a motorway service area was electric there would be a bit of a queue for the charge points....most areas only have a couple....mind you shares in Costa would be a good investment. 

If every car in a motorway service area was electric there would be enough charge points to accommodate them and a lot less petrol pumps. 

Once there were coaching inns to service and fuel the main transport medium but somehow they managed to change over to the internal combustion engine. 

I've no doubt there were folk back then saying that the horseless carriage would never catch on and they will be sticking with horse and cart. 

[MtB]

9 hours ago, carlt said:

No me neither at the moment but my point is that progress has been made and continues to be made. 

A large proportion of the boating population do have access to electricity at their home mooring though and, given incentive grants, towpath charge points could be easily installed. 

 

 

The point that Peter is trying to make (not very successfully) is there is a probably a presumption in government to get rid of diesel and solid fuel from the cut, and the consequences of that happening will have to be 'managed' in whatever way we can. One of the ways of coping with it will be for boats to get home moorings with electricity and electric drive systems. Another way is to keep the lovely country  mooring with no leccy and make the boat self-sufficient at charging itself with solar and wind. If the 5,000 CCers and the further 5,000 boaters who like their on-line country moorings but can't meet the requirement to stop burning fossil fuels, they will have to give up their lifestyle choice/hobby.

 

Arguing that stopping fossil fuel use will prevent us continuing with our current boating habits may be true but will not cut it. The gov't will simply ignore you and ban it anyway so suck it up and plan for the future. Peter illustrates that the best that can be achieved so far is cruising for three hours a day in summer weather using a widebeam for maximum solar harvest. If that is not good enough for you, then you simply won't be able to continue boating. I suspect there is a different demographic of boaters for who this would be acceptable, and those people will take over from the 'I must cruise 10 hours every day' brigade. 

 

My personal view is that until the day comes when fossil fuels get banned there is little point in jumping before being pushed as Peter has done. Being an early adopter is never a recipe for an easy life, I have other things to do than develop my own bespoke electric boat and besides, one of the reasons I love boating is to enjoy using my vintage diesels and I'll continue to do that until I;m stopped. Once the actual deadline date gets named for stopping fossil fuels and heaves into view there will be a headlong rush by business to develop electric solutions and at that point I'll buy one. At that point boaters will have to switch to a 'can do' attitude from their current 'it can't be done' attitude or just give it up. It will strip out all those in it just for the housing, and real boaters who actually like the challenge to keep boating will remain, history illustrates. 

 

[frangar]

4 minutes ago, carlt said:

If every car in a motorway service area was electric there would be enough charge points to accommodate them and a lot less petrol pumps. 

Once there were coaching inns to service and fuel the main transport medium but somehow they managed to change over to the internal combustion engine. 

I've no doubt there were folk back then saying that the horseless carriage would never catch on and they will be sticking with horse and cart. 

As others have said even if/when that happens there’s going to have to be some massive investment in the national grid to power the chargers when all the cars plug in at peak times. 

[carlt]

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

As others have said even if/when that happens there’s going to have to be some massive investment in the national grid to power the chargers when all the cars plug in at peak times. 

 

I agree...and that is exactly what will happen eventually.

 

Electricity is something that can be sold so there will always be someone willing to sell it.