Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Or they could just go the LPG route, cleaner and quieter and not as much stench and smoke, their is always a clean alternative that doesnt involve diesel and NOX which is why this consultation is happening

Although the Diesel engine is relatively slow-revving and produces its maximum torque at lower RPM than a similar Petrol version, this is not the case when it is converted to run on LPG. The revised engine has to'rev' more when running on LPG because its maximum torque has been pushed higher up the rev. band. This can bring new problems of reliability and longevity. Even if the 'top end' of a Diesel has been fully reworked, the crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods (to mention but a few components) will suffer higher stresses at increased RPM necessary when running on LPG. Mechanical breakdown may result in far less time, whilst increased wear and reduced component life are certain. FinaIly, note that in all of the above cases the converted engine will cannot be a true Diesel or even a dual fuel engine as it will have lost its higher compression ratio and the means to inject Diesel.

Conclusion

The above factors combine (along with many others not discussed here) to make actual conversion of most Diesel engines uneconomic. It would be simpler and quicker to fit a Petrol engine.

 

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/diesel.html

 

 

And, the view from a Gas Supplier

 

ADVANTAGES FROM THE DIESEL CONVERSATION TO LPG:
Adapting the DIESEL engine to Euro 6 standard
Gas increases the efficiency of diesel fuel combustion. This improves the engine’s flexibility and lowers the combustion temperature, which extends the life of the engine. The engine power is increased by 20-30%
At the same time, the amount of particulate matter in the exhaust gas decreases, which extends the life of the particle filter, which is very high. Due to the fact that while driving both fuel are fed simultaneously, the savings at the distributor are
Less gasoline than LPG.

EXAMPLE COMBUSTION AND SAVINGS

FORD TRANSIT 2.0TD 125HP 2005 REMOTE COMBINATION 16,42l DIESEL / 100 MILES

PRICE 1L DIESEL – £ 1.16
PRICE 1L LPG – £ 0.59
——————–
Spending on fuel at 100 MILES: £ 19,05
If you spend 200mils a week on diesel you spend 32,84L – £ 38,1
————————————————– —————————-
When you mount LPG to your diesel to beat 200miles you will spend:
FUEL IS MIXED IN DIESEL ENGINES.
Diesel: 19,70L- £ 22.85
LPG 13,14L- £ 7.75
Which all together gives you £ 30,60

YOU SAVE £ 7.5 PER WEEK AND £ 360 PER YEAR

The general rule is that we save 20-30% of the money for a diesel-to-lpg conversion.

 

http://www.autogaspol.co.uk/news-lpg-for-diesel/

Edited July 24, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[carlt]

16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Or they could just go the LPG route, cleaner and quieter and not as much stench and smoke, their is always a clean alternative that doesnt involve diesel and NOX which is why this consultation is happening

Yes I've always been puzzled why lpg engines aren't more popular, especially outboards in the Cruiser sector. 

Considering the perennial problem of petrol supply compared to the ready availability of lpg it seems strange that it isn't the most popular fuel in the small leisure boat market. 

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Although the Diesel engine is relatively slow-revving and produces its maximum torque at lower RPM than a similar Petrol version, this is not the case when it is converted to run on LPG. The revised engine has to'rev' more when running on LPG because its maximum torque has been pushed higher up the rev. band. This can bring new problems of reliability and longevity. Even if the 'top end' of a Diesel has been fully reworked, the crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods (to mention but a few components) will suffer higher stresses at increased RPM necessary when running on LPG. Mechanical breakdown may result in far less time, whilst increased wear and reduced component life are certain. FinaIly, note that in all of the above cases the converted engine will cannot be a true Diesel or even a dual fuel engine as it will have lost its higher compression ratio and the means to inject Diesel.

Conclusion

The above factors combine (along with many others not discussed here) to make actual conversion of most Diesel engines uneconomic. It would be simpler and quicker to fit a Petrol engine.

 

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/diesel.html

So their new engines will be Pure LPG engines which run a higher than petrol compression 13 to 1 [LPG110 octane rating] and given that most diesel never reach the upper level of RPM the same would be likely of LPG engines. Alan we have to clean up our act NOX is the current problem and diesels arnt a cure for that they are the cause

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

So their new engines will be Pure LPG engines which run a higher than petrol compression 13 to 1 [LPG110 octane rating] and given that most diesel never reach the upper level of RPM the same would be likely of LPG engines. Alan we have to clean up our act NOX is the current problem and diesels arnt a cure for that they are the cause

New engines - Fine !

 

But conversion of 'what we already have' is (to quote the article again)

 

The above factors combine (along with many others not discussed here) to make actual conversion of most Diesel engines uneconomic. It would be simpler and quicker to fit a Petrol engine.

 

The problem looming is that as the goal post move again and petrol become 'banned' and then all 'hydrocarbon' based engines become banned where do we go from there ?

May be by that time there will be a step change in electricity storage and 'plug in points' everywhere.

 

I currently have 9 diesel engined 'vehicles', bought (partly) at the behest of the Governments instructions to 'go-clean' and move away from petrol.

 

Yes I can see it coming but not in my lifetime.

[Chewbacka]

One way to reduce canal boat emissions (before a charging infrastructure can be installed) would be to use a small euro6 Diesel engine (say 1kW) working very hard to charge a lithium battery bank powering an electric motor, that way the engine would be running hard and hot so the NOx cleaning system would work.  After about an hour the Diesel engine outdoor shut down and the boat would run on batteries until flat at which point the Diesel engine would fire up again.  Fairly clean, but probably very expensive.  But it could be done.........

[Flyboy]

32 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Or they could just go the LPG route, cleaner and quieter and not as much stench and smoke, their is always a clean alternative that doesnt involve diesel and NOX which is why this consultation is happening

And where's all this LPG coming from?  If there's no petrol or diesel being produced because it's banned there will be no LPG as it's  a bi product of petroleum. The clues in LPG  (Liquid Petroleum Gas )

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

One way to reduce canal boat emissions (before a charging infrastructure can be installed) would be to use a small euro6 Diesel engine (say 1kW) working very hard to charge a lithium battery bank powering an electric motor, that way the engine would be running hard and hot so the NOx cleaning system would work.  After about an hour the Diesel engine outdoor shut down and the boat would run on batteries until flat at which point the Diesel engine would fire up again.  Fairly clean, but probably very expensive.  But it could be done.........

 

2 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

And where's all this LPG coming from?  If there's no petrol or diesel being produced because it's banned there will be no LPG as it's  a bi product of petroleum. The clues in LPG  (Liquid Petroleum Gas )

Or use an LPG generator and solar panels because its cleaner? We will still need oil for making things doesn't that have to go through the cracking process? It could be altered to produce just LPG?

Now think about this I and other electric boat owners and makers have sent in it can be done,the civil servant in charge wants to hear that! So I'm a way the consultation is rigged to give the right answer which is the way of the world

 

[DandV]

3 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

And where's all this LPG coming from?  If there's no petrol or diesel being produced because it's banned there will be no LPG as it's  a bi product of petroleum. The clues in LPG  (Liquid Petroleum Gas )

LPG, (propane, methane) may be produced as a by product of oil refining but the bulk of it is extracted direct  along with methane, (natural gas)  from the gas stream component of oil gas extraction. 

[carlt]

3 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

And where's all this LPG coming from?  If there's no petrol or diesel being produced because it's banned there will be no LPG as it's  a bi product of petroleum. The clues in LPG  (Liquid Petroleum Gas )

 

The majority of LPG is extracted from natural gas, not oil.

 

[David Mack]

35 minutes ago, carlt said:

Yes I've always been puzzled why lpg engines aren't more popular, especially outboards in the Cruiser sector. 

Considering the perennial problem of petrol supply compared to the ready availability of lpg it seems strange that it isn't the most popular fuel in the small leisure boat market. 

How does the cost of LPG compare with petrol? If you are using Calor gas bottles I imagine the cost is rather higher (although the unit cost is less if you canuse the tall bottles).

I recall back in the 70s a couple of hire companies fitted bulk LPG tanks to their boats, and presuably they had the appropriate refuelling facility at the hire base. But the idea didn't seem to take off. I wonder why.

[carlt]

Just now, David Mack said:

How does the cost of LPG compare with petrol?

 

I'm not sure about using prefilled bottles like Calor but if you use a refillable cylinder at a petrol station (or boatyards if they had them) then the cost is around half of that of petrol...until the govt. decides to hike the tax of course.

 

[ditchcrawler]

15 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

 

Must have been the way I framed the google search - typical: http://www.boathirenorthamptonshire.com/electric-boat-hire.php

Had electric day boats on the Broads for years, just plug them in the mains every night

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, carlt said:

 

The majority of LPG is extracted from natural gas, not oil.

 

 

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

How does the cost of LPG compare with petrol? If you are using Calor gas bottles I imagine the cost is rather higher (although the unit cost is less if you canuse the tall bottles).

I recall back in the 70s a couple of hire companies fitted bulk LPG tanks to their boats, and presuably they had the appropriate refuelling facility at the hire base. But the idea didn't seem to take off. I wonder why.

 

1 hour ago, carlt said:

 

I'm not sure about using prefilled bottles like Calor but if you use a refillable cylinder at a petrol station (or boatyards if they had them) then the cost is around half of that of petrol...until the govt. decides to hike the tax of course.

 

You see carl i am always looking fro a way to clean up my act and you are the same as we have discovered on various threads, I am at the moment suggesting greener ways of going boating , the company that did hire boats on gas was based in Whaley bridge and owned by two friends of mine, they sold it and moved into gas conversions on cars.

LPG has been at a very low tax bracket because of it green credentials and in the way of the world would work well on boats for propulsion/heating or powering a generator to charge batteries on an electric boat to aid say solar? Me I am adding another 1.2 kw of solar which should allow me to be powered and off grid by electric all year, but that is me I can afford it and I feel the need to be as clean as possible.

If small bulk tanks were fitted to boats I am sure that LPG would be in the 40p a litre range so it would help peoples pockets but that is for a future debate, as I have now decided that I am finished with this thread, its up to others to justify their pollution to the consultation, but in the face of numerous electric boats on the water they will find that an uphill battle

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

 

You see carl i am always looking fro a way to clean up my act and you are the same as we have discovered on various threads, I am at the moment suggesting greener ways of going boating , the company that did hire boats on gas was based in Whaley bridge and owned by two friends of mine, they sold it and moved into gas conversions on cars.

LPG has been at a very low tax bracket because of it green credentials and in the way of the world would work well on boats for propulsion/heating or powering a generator to charge batteries on an electric boat to aid say solar? Me I am adding another 1.2 kw of solar which should allow me to be powered and off grid by electric all year, but that is me I can afford it and I feel the need to be as clean as possible.

If small bulk tanks were fitted to boats I am sure that LPG would be in the 40p a litre range so it would help peoples pockets but that is for a future debate, as I have now decided that I am finished with this thread, its up to others to justify their pollution to the consultation, but in the face of numerous electric boats on the water they will find that an uphill battle

If you fit an LPG bulk tank then you can also install a gas boiler and a steam engine, just like Keith Jones's "Firefly" did in the 1980s, and have the best of all worlds ?

 

[except for the fact it used something north of 250l of LPG a week to generate 4shp...]

[carlt]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

If you fit an LPG bulk tank then you can also install a gas boiler and a steam engine, just like Keith Jones's "Firefly" did in the 1980s...

 

 

Like a leaf on the wind...Watch how she soars...

[Graham Davis]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

2. Passive regeneration, where the engine is worked so hard that the exhaust gets hot enough to self ignite the soot. In reality this ONLY occurs at autobahn speeds or race tracks.

My Yeti seems to be able to passive regenerate without such activity. 

[Albion]

4 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

My Yeti seems to be able to passive regenerate without such activity. 

Passive regeneration occurs if the DPF is mounted close enough to the engine and has sufficient time periods at adequate engine power requirement to allow the regen to happen. For a lot of canal boat engines running at low load and with interruptions due to possible lock usage or flights I doubt that the regen conditions would be met easily. Another risk is that when the regen occurs the temperature is huge (cars advised not to park on a field with long grass after a regen for example) so would one want a device that hot in your engine room/bay?

Roger

[cuthound]

14 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

My Yeti seems to be able to passive regenerate without such activity. 

 

How are you measuring this?

 

I have a 2.0tdi Yeti and use an app called "VAGDPF" and a bluetooth dongle to send the CANBUS data to my phone.

 

I find even dropping down a couple of gears on the motorway doesn't  trigger a passive regen. This is easily checked by looking at the Insta take our fuel consumption. It increase significantly when an active regen is in progress.

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

How are you measuring this?

 

I have a 2.0tdi Yeti and use an app called "VAGDPF" and a bluetooth dongle to send the CANBUS data to my phone.

 

I find even dropping down a couple of gears on the motorway doesn't  trigger a passive regen. This is easily checked by looking at the Insta take our fuel consumption. It increase significantly when an active regen is in progress.

I often see passive regens using VAGDPF on my Yeti, normally when the engine is working hard i.e at  autobahn speeds which is a minimum of 2500rpm in 6th . 2500rpm in a lower gear doesn't make them happen nearly so often as the load is less.

They are often very short sometimes a matter of seconds. Rarely see passive regens under 60mph unless climbing a long hill with a decent load on the back.

Like Graham I tow a lot, half my milage nowadays is with a medium sized trailer or tin tent on the back, so maybe thats why I see them more frequently. Without VAGDPF running there is no way of telling that they are happening as tickover only rises on an active regen.

I think that the DPF on a Yeti is attached to the turbo so you dont get closer or hotter than that. 

 

[cuthound]

9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I often see passive regens using VAGDPF on my Yeti, normally when the engine is working hard i.e at  autobahn speeds which is a minimum of 2500rpm in 6th . 2500rpm in a lower gear doesn't make them happen nearly so often as the load is less.

They are often very short sometimes a matter of seconds. Rarely see passive regens under 60mph unless climbing a long hill with a decent load on the back.

Like Graham I tow a lot, half my milage nowadays is with a medium sized trailer or tin tent on the back, so maybe thats why I see them more frequently. Without VAGDPF running there is no way of telling that they are happening as tickover only rises on an active regen.

I think that the DPF on a Yeti is attached to the turbo so you dont get closer or hotter than that. 

 

 

Yes towing will increase the load on the engine considerably and increase the likelihood of a passive regen.

 

Don't think it's worth me getting a trailer or caravan just to enjoy more passive regens though. .

[Mike Todd]

19 hours ago, StephenA said:

But modern diesels need to go through all sorts of special cycles to keep running. Many modern diesels only doing short runs end up with the engine in limp home mode. Put a modern diesel in a canalboat and its just going to die.

I thought that the marinisation was supposed to offset that effect - but I know very little about such things.

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, peterboat said:

 

Or use an LPG generator and solar panels because its cleaner? We will still need oil for making things doesn't that have to go through the cracking process? It could be altered to produce just LPG?

Now think about this I and other electric boat owners and makers have sent in it can be done,the civil servant in charge wants to hear that! So I'm a way the consultation is rigged to give the right answer which is the way of the world

 

But that's the point, you have not shown that it (where 'it' = the crusing pattern most people want to do and maybe even enjoy) can be done. What you have shown is that something else can be done. As an antipodean post just a while back said, that's nit helpful.

[Graham Davis]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

How are you measuring this?

 

I have a 2.0tdi Yeti and use an app called "VAGDPF" and a bluetooth dongle to send the CANBUS data to my phone.

 

I find even dropping down a couple of gears on the motorway doesn't  trigger a passive regen. This is easily checked by looking at the Insta take our fuel consumption. It increase significantly when an active regen is in progress.

I know it is happening by the slight increase in the Instant Fuel Consumption on the Maxidot and by the idle revs increasing to 1100/1200 revs. According to Skoda that is a "passive" regeneration.

[StephenA]

7 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Had electric day boats on the Broads for years, just plug them in the mains every night

Which is fine if you have the sockets to plug into - which is something that's been flagged up previously.

Edited July 24, 2019 by StephenA

[cuthound]

28 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

I know it is happening by the slight increase in the Instant Fuel Consumption on the Maxidot and by the idle revs increasing to 1100/1200 revs. According to Skoda that is a "passive" regeneration.

 

If the idle revs increase it is because of the additional diesel injected for active regeneration.

 

Passive regeneration occurs when the exhaust gases become hot enough on their own to ignite the root in the DPF.