Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, carlt said:

If every car in a motorway service area was electric there would be enough charge points to accommodate them and a lot less petrol pumps. 

Once there were coaching inns to service and fuel the main transport medium but somehow they managed to change over to the internal combustion engine. 

I've no doubt there were folk back then saying that the horseless carriage would never catch on and they will be sticking with horse and cart. 

Carl as soon as they excepted the EU red cant be used for propulsion I knew that this consultation was a rubber stamp affair, the big stick is out already, white diesel will be expensive so our cruising pattern will reduce. Other big sticks might be used like above average license rises for diesel boats and reductions for electric? Then maybe being charged to go into towns and cities would be a good one say 12.50 a day would seem fair, same as London for cars? Then if you are caught using red for propulsion  its  confiscation of your boat and sold at auction! With the issue by 2025 your boat has to be emission free. I think that would sort it out fairly quickly, Draconian yes but so was the consultation cars and commercials I filled in a couple of years ago

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

The point that Peter is trying to make (not very successfully) is there is a probably a presumption in government to get rid of diesel and solid fuel from the cut, and the consequences of that happening will have to be 'managed' in whatever way we can. One of the ways of coping with it will be for boats to get home moorings with electricity and electric drive systems. Another way is to keep the lovely country  mooring with no leccy and make the boat self-sufficient at charging itself with solar and wind. If the 5,000 CCers and the further 5,000 boaters who like their on-line country moorings but can't meet the requirement to stop burning fossil fuels, they will have to give up their lifestyle choice/hobby.

 

Arguing that stopping fossil fuel use will prevent us continuing with our current boating habits may be true but will not cut it. The gov't will simply ignore you and ban it anyway so suck it up and plan for the future. Peter illustrates that the best that can be achieved so far is cruising for three hours a day in summer weather using a widebeam for maximum solar harvest. If that is not good enough for you, then you simply won't be able to continue boating. I suspect there is a different demographic of boaters for who this would be acceptable, and those people will take over from the 'I must cruise 10 hours every day' brigade. 

 

My personal view is that until the day comes when fossil fuels get banned there is little point in jumping before being pushed as Peter has done. Being an early adopter is never a recipe for an easy life, I have other things to do than develop my own bespoke electric boat and besides, one of the reasons I love boating is to enjoy using my vintage diesels and I'll continue to do that until I;m stopped. Once the actual deadline date gets named for stopping fossil fuels and heaves into view there will be a headlong rush by business to develop electric solutions and at that point I'll buy one. At that point boaters will have to switch to a 'can do' attitude from their current 'it can't be done' attitude or just give it up. It will strip out all those in it just for the housing, and real boaters who actually like the challenge to keep boating will remain, history illustrates. 

 

Mike I can cruise for over 5 hours a day in the sun, but choose not to, I suspect a full size narrowboat will get about 2.4kw of solar on it and have a good range with the same batteries as me, also they would need less than my 3kw to do 3mph. Thats my only observation on an accurate  what will happen

ps I am retired so this conversion was for fun like the last one I did

[DandV]

13 minutes ago, carlt said:

 

I agree...and that is exactly what will happen eventually.

 

Electricity is something that can be sold so there will always be someone willing to sell it.

 

Not only the grid but also quick start generation. Short term peak loads are difficult and expensive to cater for. Big steam powered generation and nuclear  are unsuitable for short term peak supply,  so in the absence of sufficient hydro generation, gas turbines are probably best.

 

Sorry replied to wrong post.

Edited July 25, 2019 by DandV

[Onionman]

It's interesting that a great number of responses on this thread seem to revolve around having to charge your own batteries (and the compromises that causes) when that isn't the way diesel boats run. You fill them up.

 

There's a technological leap coming. Lithium glass batteries. Dull, but please bear with me. They are roughly twice as energy dense as current Li-ion. They are much cheaper. They cannot burn. They are much lighter. Their capacity doesn't decline over time. And, importantly for this discussion, they can be charged as fast as you can pile current into them.  John Goodenough (inventor of the Lithium ion battery) reckons potentially seconds to charge a car. It'll be like a diesel; you'll fill it up. It might not be once a month but it certainly won't be several times a day.

 

So it's entirely possible that basing boats on upcoming (rather than current) technology will resolve the problems people are raising.

If I were designing boats with this technology I might well aim to have a set of these new batteries able to run for a minimum of two days' cruising. You stop a couple of minutes to fill up with juice.  In backup, given the tiny size of electric motors, there should be room in the engine bay for a coupled, fitted, efficient, small petrol engine used purely for emergency battery charging.

 

Change is scary but there's normally a solution that doesn't hurt too much.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Onionman

[Onionman]

And, in passing, I'd love it to be as quiet at the back of a narrowboat as it is at the front.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

Absolutely not going to happen any time soon. The cost of getting cabling to these remote spots would cost millions.  On the L&L from Burscough to Liverpool there are many swing bridges operated by batteries because of the locations are in the middle of nowhere. These bridges are charged from a car battery charger which runs off inadeqate cabling. It's fine for a few boats a day but on busy days the system can't cope and the there's is 24 hr stoppage to recharge. Waterways say the cost of cabling and posibly a small sub station is not viable wthin their budget.  Most marinas can't cope with 16amp supplies at the moment so I can't see any forking out for sub stations and cable upgrades. Somewhere like Mercia marina on the T&M would never be able to cope with 400 electric boats charging at the same time without massive investment. If we are forced to have electric boats I think a lot of marinas will shut down and a lot of owners will give up boating.

You're missing the point -- the difficulty of providing charging points (and enough power) for electric narrowboats is *tiny* compared to the problem of providing them for cars, a problem which will be solved and is pretty much guaranteed to happen in the not-too-distant future -- yes there are huge implications for power generation/distribution/charging points but these will be solved, because they have to be. Once these problems are solved, the same solution will work for narrowboats -- meaning not just building the infrastucture but paying for it by profit made on selling the power.

 

There are about 30 million cars in the UK which is 1000x more than the number of narrowboats, and the average fuel use of each of them for propulsion is probably considerably higher. So the physical problem of providing narrowboat charging points is more than 1000x smaller compared to providing them for cars, and the infrastructure cost per narrowboat will be presumably similar to the cost per car -- which everyone will accept because they won't have a choice, and it'll still be cheaper than using diesel.

 

Regarding marinas (and CART charging points around the canals), don't forget that the wholesale cost of a given amount of energy (delivered to the propellor) with electric power is *far* less than diesel -- yes it will cost them money to put the charging infrastructure in, which they'll then recoup by selling the power to boaters at a big markup per kWh.

 

As far as heating is concerned -- probably the main energy user in marinas -- the answer is exactly the same, but with houses instead of cars. There are >1000x more houses than narrowboats and the fossil fuel problem has to be (and will be) solved for them too; whatever the solution is, it will also be applied to boats.

 

I suggest people stop worrying about how these problems will be solved for narrowboats and realise that they *will* be solved for cars (transport) and houses (heating) and boats will effectively get a "free ride" on the back of this development, so in the future they can look forward to silent boating without a trail of diesel fumes.

 

This isn't mindless Boris-style optimism, it's reality. An exact equivalent is the industry I work in (integrated circuit design); as a small volume manufacturer there's no way we could ever pay the tens of billions needed to bring up the advanced processes we need, but fortunately this is done for (and paid for by) huge volume companies like Apple so we don't have to worry about it.

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, Onionman said:

It's interesting that a great number of responses on this thread seem to revolve around having to charge your own batteries (and the compromises that causes) when that isn't the way diesel boats run. You fill them up.

 

There's a technological leap coming. Lithium glass batteries. Dull, but please bear with me. They are roughly twice as energy dense as current Li-ion. They are much cheaper. They cannot burn. They are much lighter. Their capacity doesn't decline over time. And, importantly for this discussion, they can be charged as fast as you can pile current into them.  John Goodenough (inventor of the Lithium ion battery) reckons potentially seconds to charge a car. It'll be like a diesel; you'll fill it up. It might not be once a month but it certainly won't be several times a day.

 

So it's entirely possible that basing boats on upcoming (rather than current) technology will resolve the problems people are raising.

If I were designing boats with this technology I might well aim to have a set of these new batteries able to run for a minimum of two days' cruising. You stop a couple of minutes to fill up with juice.  In backup, given the tiny size of electric motors, there should be room in the engine bay for a coupled, fitted, efficient, small petrol engine used purely for emergency battery charging.

 

Change is scary but there's normally a solution that doesn't hurt too much.

There are battery solutions like this on the way (I posted about one a few days ago with better figures than the ones you quoted), but don't forget that even if small ones can be charged very fast *in the laboratory* this is not the same as being able to charge big ones that fast *in real life*. To recharge a relatively small 24kWh (48V 500Ah) propulsion battery bank in 1 minute needs around 1.5MW input, and more to the point a charger which can convert this to 30000A current. Yes you could go to much higher voltage batteries like cars use for exactly this reason, but then this gets you into all the nasties about high-voltage safety and insulation and regulations because it's above 60V, which is not going to be popular with boat builders or owners.

 

And for narrowboats it's pointless anyway -- you stop every day or two while travelling to fill up a water tank which typically takes tens of minutes, so there's no need to charge up any faster than this -- 4C maximum charge rate (15 minutes) should be fine even for a recharge while travelling, a 30A 240V mains point will do this just fine. In most cases you'd charge up overnight anyway, and then the fast charge problem goes away completely.

 

But I agree completely that electric propulsion (and heating/cooking) for boats is going to happen because all the problems being brought up about why it won't work will have to be be solved by the 1000x bigger markets for cars (propulsion) and homes (heating/cooking) -- see my other post...

Edited July 25, 2019 by IanD

[Jerra]

When oh when will people realise that in future we (the human race) will not be able to carry on as we always did regardless.   It will mean change and change is coming.   It may be that cruising for more than a few hours and mooring in the sticks is no longer possible.

 

For the government they have to start somewhere.  Low hanging fruit such as boaters would seem to them a good place to start.   Having picked a few low hanging fruit, when they turn to the fruit higher up, the said fruit will be thinking they are serious about this look what happened to X Y and Z.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

When oh when will people realise that in future we (the human race) will not be able to carry on as we always did regardless.   It will mean change and change is coming.   It may be that cruising for more than a few hours and mooring in the sticks is no longer possible.

 

For the government they have to start somewhere.  Low hanging fruit such as boaters would seem to them a good place to start.   Having picked a few low hanging fruit, when they turn to the fruit higher up, the said fruit will be thinking they are serious about this look what happened to X Y and Z.

I disagree. Electric boats, yes that will happen. When it does, they'll be just as useable as diesel boats, in the same way that electric cars will be.

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

I disagree. Electric boats, yes that will happen. When it does, they'll be just as useable as diesel boats, in the same way that electric cars will be.

Is this the technology will sort it out line of thought?  Can it happen quickly enough?   According to scientists the tipping point will be reached in 10 -12 years.

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Is this the technology will sort it out line of thought?  Can it happen quickly enough?   According to scientists the tipping point will be reached in 10 -12 years.

No, it's the "it will be sorted out for narrowboats at the same time as for cars" point of view.

 

If that's in 10 years, great. If it's in 5 years, better. If it's in 15 or 20 years, not so good.

 

But worrying about when it happens for narrowboats is pointless, we should all be worrying about when it will happen for cars...

[Flyboy]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Mike I can cruise for over 5 hours a day in the sun, but choose not to, I suspect a full size narrowboat will get about 2.4kw of solar on it and have a good range with the same batteries as me, also they would need less than my 3kw to do 3mph. Thats my only observation on an accurate  what will happen

ps I am retired so this conversion was for fun like the last one I did

You must be joking. 3kw is about 4HP, factor in inefficiencies of the motor and it will be considerably less.  I'd like to see your boat perform with a 4HP outboard on the back. 

[Onionman]

39 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Is this the technology will sort it out line of thought?  Can it happen quickly enough?   According to scientists the tipping point will be reached in 10 -12 years.

 

There are many tipping points dependent on technology and political will.

 

One of the best bits of advice I ever saw about predictions is "don't assume that straight lines will continue straight".  Twenty years ago solar was a joke that could never work in bulk. Price per kW was static.  Now it's mainstream and (including capital costs, etc) is cheaper than coal-generated electricity in many parts of the world. That was nigh-on unpredictable in my lifetime.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Onionman

[Mike Todd]

12 hours ago, peterboat said:

According to the consultation its 2025 so you have 5 and a half years.

I will say this for the last time its not the governments fault this is due to a court case which the government lost so by law they have to get NOX to safe limits and if that means that people cant cruise for fun in their boat with a diesel engine, then thats what they will do, peoples health and lives are more important  to most people

No one is suggesting that the reduction of adverse emissions, as well as decarbonising the economy, are not good things. What is at issue is which, of various available options, is the best way to work towards those goals. The goals now being set are - justifiably - anticipatory. That is to say, they seek to prevent a catastrophe rather than solve it once it has happened. This makes the democratic aspect even more important as it is necessary to convince a sufficient majority to vote for a government that will still allow people to do what they want to do. (That's being neutral on whether what people want is a good thing or not)

 

In the end it is not for government to tell people what to do but rather to set allowable constraints - in this case limits on emissions etc etc. One specific solution might be all electric but hat in itself is not the objective, emission reduction is the objective. If sufficiently clever people can come up with other solutions then they should be allowed to adopt them, save for the fact that life tells us to beware of unintended consequences, something that politician and electors alike are prone to ignore.

 

As a,ready said, there are several parallel debates here. Let us suppose that the engine manufacturers come up with a design that meets the emissions limits, should such engines be permitted indefinitely? What if someone manages to turn renewable energy into a form as compact as diesel/petrol/lpg at a realistic price? (BTW, lpg is not as energy efficient as some think as it takes quite a bit to liquefy it in the first place and to transport it in that form)

 

Also note that although the government may have lost its court case, it is the same government that makes the rules in the first place and so they can, should the political pressure demand, change them again.  It would not be the first time . . . 

[Jerra]

Just now, IanD said:

No, it's the "it will be sorted out for narrowboats at the same time as for cars" point of view.

 

If that's in 10 years, great. If it's in 5 years, better. If it's in 15 or 20 years, not so good.

 

But worrying about when it happens for narrowboats is pointless, we should all be worrying about when it will happen for cars...

Is there a consultation suggesting diesel engined cars will not operate after 2025?   I must have missed it.

 

I take it you either didn't read or disagree the govt coulod start to bring about rapid change by picking low hanging fruit first.

 

It has often been said it looks as if CRT don't wantboats, the govt clearly  doesn't want to be paying out more money for running them.  They may well see making boating very expensive as a bit of a win win situation.

 

I certainly don't think they will act on cars and boats at the same time.  Too much of a vote loser.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

There are about 30 million cars in the UK which is 1000x more than the number of narrowboats,

Although the gist is 'correct' there are a lot more than 30,000 boats affected.

 

There are 100,000 boats on the Inland Waterways and some 150,000+ 'coastal boats', we should not look at boats registered with CRT in isolation.

 

The big problem to provide infrastructure / capable battery storage is that coastal boating involves many hours of transiting from one marina to the next.

 

As I have cited previously from Hull Marina, to the next nearest marina is 60 (ish) miles and takes 12 - 13 hours. There are no 'options' to pull in after 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 ….. hours there is no where to recharge.

 

The battery bank will need to have capacity for 12 hours + 'safety' hours + waiting for tide / weather to abate hours. Ideally I would be looking for a 24 hour battery bank, and that's assuming I can get to a marina to recharge and will not just be anchoring up in a nice sandy bay for the night

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Is there a consultation suggesting diesel engined cars will not operate after 2025?   I must have missed it.

 

I take it you either didn't read or disagree the govt coulod start to bring about rapid change by picking low hanging fruit first.

 

It has often been said it looks as if CRT don't wantboats, the govt clearly  doesn't want to be paying out more money for running them.  They may well see making boating very expensive as a bit of a win win situation.

 

I certainly don't think they will act on cars and boats at the same time.  Too much of a vote loser.

The government is unlikely to ban diesels in boats before they ban them in cars because it's pointless -- at the point where there is a technology solution, they'll start to ban them (or discourage them with increasing taxes) for both. Until there is a solution, they can't realistically ban them for either.

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

You must be joking. 3kw is about 4HP, factor in inefficiencies of the motor and it will be considerably less.  I'd like to see your boat perform with a 4HP outboard on the back. 

Mate you dont know what you are on about! My boat cruises at 3KW at 3mph, it has 23KW if needed[ 30 HP] and it works well, the other boat I converted a broads cruiser hardly uses any power to cruise. JohnV a proper commercial electrician went on my boat the other week and he watched the numbers it was a lovely sunny day and we were getting over 3KW coming in from solar so I was using nothing out of the batteries in fact I was putting charge in them! When I get back from holiday I am putting on another 1200watts of solar to take me up to 4.9kw of solar so I see no issues with my cruising pattern or domestic use ever

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, carlt said:

If every car in a motorway service area was electric there would be enough charge points to accommodate them and a lot less petrol pumps. 

Once there were coaching inns to service and fuel the main transport medium but somehow they managed to change over to the internal combustion engine. 

I've no doubt there were folk back then saying that the horseless carriage would never catch on and they will be sticking with horse and cart. 

Yes, but the change came because folk considered that horseless carriages performed better not because the government imposed a restriction on the dropping of horse poo.

7 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Is there a consultation suggesting diesel engined cars will not operate after 2025?   I must have missed it.

 

I take it you either didn't read or disagree the govt coulod start to bring about rapid change by picking low hanging fruit first.

 

It has often been said it looks as if CRT don't wantboats, the govt clearly  doesn't want to be paying out more money for running them.  They may well see making boating very expensive as a bit of a win win situation.

 

I certainly don't think they will act on cars and boats at the same time.  Too much of a vote loser.

For boaters, it is more about what they do to trucks than cars which is important.

[carlt]

Just now, Mike Todd said:

Yes, but the change came because folk considered that horseless carriages performed better not because the government imposed a restriction on the dropping of horse poo.

Improving the environment is performing better.

 

The change will come because it has to.

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

The point that Peter is trying to make (not very successfully) is there is a probably a presumption in government to get rid of diesel and solid fuel from the cut, and the consequences of that happening will have to be 'managed' in whatever way we can. One of the ways of coping with it will be for boats to get home moorings with electricity and electric drive systems. Another way is to keep the lovely country  mooring with no leccy and make the boat self-sufficient at charging itself with solar and wind. If the 5,000 CCers and the further 5,000 boaters who like their on-line country moorings but can't meet the requirement to stop burning fossil fuels, they will have to give up their lifestyle choice/hobby.

 

Arguing that stopping fossil fuel use will prevent us continuing with our current boating habits may be true but will not cut it. The gov't will simply ignore you and ban it anyway so suck it up and plan for the future. Peter illustrates that the best that can be achieved so far is cruising for three hours a day in summer weather using a widebeam for maximum solar harvest. If that is not good enough for you, then you simply won't be able to continue boating. I suspect there is a different demographic of boaters for who this would be acceptable, and those people will take over from the 'I must cruise 10 hours every day' brigade. 

 

My personal view is that until the day comes when fossil fuels get banned there is little point in jumping before being pushed as Peter has done. Being an early adopter is never a recipe for an easy life, I have other things to do than develop my own bespoke electric boat and besides, one of the reasons I love boating is to enjoy using my vintage diesels and I'll continue to do that until I;m stopped. Once the actual deadline date gets named for stopping fossil fuels and heaves into view there will be a headlong rush by business to develop electric solutions and at that point I'll buy one. At that point boaters will have to switch to a 'can do' attitude from their current 'it can't be done' attitude or just give it up. It will strip out all those in it just for the housing, and real boaters who actually like the challenge to keep boating will remain, history illustrates. 

 

In which case all the narrow canals would be abandoned?

[IanD]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Although the gist is 'correct' there are a lot more than 30,000 boats affected.

 

There are 100,000 boats on the Inland Waterways and some 150,000+ 'coastal boats', we should not look at boats registered with CRT in isolation.

 

The big problem to provide infrastructure / capable battery storage is that coastal boating involves many hours of transiting from one marina to the next.

 

As I have cited previously from Hull Marina, to the next nearest marina is 60 (ish) miles and takes 12 - 13 hours. There are no 'options' to pull in after 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 ….. hours there is no where to recharge.

 

The battery bank will need to have capacity for 12 hours + 'safety' hours + waiting for tide / weather to abate hours. Ideally I would be looking for a 24 hour battery bank, and that's assuming I can get to a marina to recharge and will not just be anchoring up in a nice sandy bay for the night

Coastal boating is to ships like narrowboats are to cars, a tiny problem in comparison. If the problem is solved for ships it's solved for coastal boats -- and also by implication narrowboats which have to travel longer distances between charges. If it isn't solved for ships (i.e. they still use diesel) it doesn't have to be solved for coastal boats which contribute a fraction of the pollution.

 

The key with anything like this is to look for the big issues (cars, homes, ships) and what will have to be done to solve these, not worry about the small problems (narrowboats, coastal boats) which will get solutions "for free".

 

The newer battery technologies like the one I posted would easily allow you to have a 24h battery, you'd just have to pay for it. Or maybe rent it, and add it onto the boat system only when needed for long journeys.

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

The government is unlikely to ban diesels in boats before they ban them in cars because it's pointless -- at the point where there is a technology solution, they'll start to ban them (or discourage them with increasing taxes) for both. Until there is a solution, they can't realistically ban them for either.

We clearly have different opinions on how govt will work.   I would agree the amount of difference it will make to the overall pollution would make it pointless.  However I don't think they would be doing it for the effect on pollution, they would/will be doing it to send a clear strong message to others that they are serious and other changes will be coming along.   Hopefully asap.

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Is there a consultation suggesting diesel engined cars will not operate after 2025?   I must have missed it.

 

I take it you either didn't read or disagree the govt coulod start to bring about rapid change by picking low hanging fruit first.

 

It has often been said it looks as if CRT don't wantboats, the govt clearly  doesn't want to be paying out more money for running them.  They may well see making boating very expensive as a bit of a win win situation.

 

I certainly don't think they will act on cars and boats at the same time.  Too much of a vote loser.

Jerra the consultation was a couple of years ago trade only I am afraid, It was really aimed at commercials and things like fridge/freezer lorries but cars were in the mix, one of the questions was we seeing much fiddling on the emissions equipment [DPF deletes/defeats] etc and how this could be overcome, I filled it in for Dave as I am now a very much a small partner in the business and have know input or drawings

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Coastal boating is to ships like narrowboats are to cars, a tiny problem in comparison. If the problem is solved for ships it's solved for coastal boats -- and also by implication narrowboats which have to travel longer distances between charges. If it isn't solved for ships (i.e. they still use diesel) it doesn't have to be solved for coastal boats which contribute a fraction of the pollution.

 

The key with anything like this is to look for the big issues (cars, homes, ships) and what will have to be done to solve these, not worry about the small problems (narrowboats, coastal boats) which will get solutions "for free".

 

The newer battery technologies like the one I posted would easily allow you to have a 24h battery, you'd just have to pay for it. Or maybe rent it, and add it onto the boat system only when needed for long journeys.

 

Agreed - but, you were comparing 30 million cars to 30k boats.

 

The consultation is only for boats that remain in UK waters - and boats that go to 'other countries' will not have to comply.

That leaves 'coastal shipping' (is there much of that these days), coastal leisure boats and Inland waterway boats.

 

"Shipping" is unlikely to have any effect on the use of diesel - particularly as ships and ferries use 'heavy fuel-oil'.