Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[Alan de Enfield]

I have been talking with Lancing Marine (one of the UK's largest marinisers of industrial engines) about what would be required to adapt my 'Fords' to run on 100% Biodiesel.

They have no suggestions what would be needed as meeting the current 7% bio content is proving difficult  with Fuel-Bug, sludge, and rotting rubber components.

 

I asked them about the Government consultations (as allegedly all of the 'industry' has been included in the consultation  THEY KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT.

 

Lancing Marine are a company with many years experience of engine marinising, right back to the BMC 1.5 in the early ‘70s, through the Ford range of petrol and diesel engines, the New Holland tractor engines, and over 60 other engine types, together with the application of those engines to a wide variety of marine transmissions. Their engine marinisation and aftermarket marinising kits make use of the popularly available Jabsco and Bowman products and a variety of Lancing Marine specialised castings, together with many components from commercially available sources in the automotive and industrial worlds.

 

https://www.lancingmarine.com/index.html

Edited July 28, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[frangar]

1 minute ago, Johny London said:

Boats don't need to recharge quickly - overnight would be more than fast enough. Most places where there are vm's, there's already electric nearby (housing / street lighting etc etc) - it can't be that difficult can it? Then off into the wilds for however long running off solar only? The large solar arrays needed to recharge drive batteries will ensure the domestic leccy never runs low.

Well at present I’ve got some 275kv overhead lines above where I’m moored....but not much else for miles...guess that should recharge me batteries pretty quickly..?

 

How exactly are you expecting this infrastructure to be paid for...when I got a quote 20 years ago to have a grid feed supplied to a mooring which would have required the 11kv lines extended by 100m and a transformer I was quoted between £15k-£20k +VAT from the electricity board...that’s without the on site distribution. 

[Johny London]

I just don't understand this pro ICE thing some people seem to have in their heads. Ok so it's a big challenge moving away from burning stuff to going electric, but that doesn't mean it cant be done. If we don't all do something then the planet is probably doomed.

I suppose funding for boat electric charging points would have to come from government grants, maybe local councils, CRT and ultimately just boaters and tax payers - what do you want me to say?

Where there's a will there's a way - but we could just say "can't" and just bury our heads in the sand I suppose.

[frangar]

4 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I just don't understand this pro ICE thing some people seem to have in their heads. Ok so it's a big challenge moving away from burning stuff to going electric, but that doesn't mean it cant be done. If we don't all do something then the planet is probably doomed.

I suppose funding for boat electric charging points would have to come from government grants, maybe local councils, CRT and ultimately just boaters and tax payers - what do you want me to say?

Where there's a will there's a way - but we could just say "can't" and just bury our heads in the sand I suppose.

The point is there isn’t really a practical alternative to diesel power for many applications at the moment and not for a while yet....but the green lobby and others jumping on the bandwagon don’t see that.  

 

The horse wasn’t replaced overnight either....change is a very gradual thing....oh and I quite like coal fired steam power as well as vintage diesels...

Edited July 28, 2019 by frangar

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

Well at present I’ve got some 275kv overhead lines above where I’m moored....but not much else for miles...guess that should recharge me batteries pretty quickly..?

 

How exactly are you expecting this infrastructure to be paid for...when I got a quote 20 years ago to have a grid feed supplied to a mooring which would have required the 11kv lines extended by 100m and a transformer I was quoted between £15k-£20k +VAT from the electricity board...that’s without the on site distribution. 

When we had our house built (in the wilds in the middle of nowhere) we had to have a 120amp transformer put in and approximately 150 yards of underground cable.

The cost was just over £20,000 and I did all the excavation work with my digger, installed all the U/G trunking and backfilled.

The Leccy board fitted the transformer on the pole and 'pulled' the cable.

My Electrician connected it all up at the house end.

 

We don't 'own' the transformer, I think the cost was simply 'installation cost'.

 

Even at (say) 30 amps supply per boat a Visitors Mooring of 10 boats would require something like a 500 amp transformer - that would COST !!!, add in cabling and bollards and it would be very expensive, who / how would it be funded ?

 

Maybe a 500% surcharge on the licence fee for electric boats ?

[Jerra]

6 minutes ago, frangar said:

The point is there isn’t really a practical alternative to diesel power for many applications at the moment and not for a while yet....but the green lobby and others jumping on the bandwagon don’t see that.  

 

The horse wasn’t replaced overnight either....change is a very gradual thing....oh and I quite like coal fired steam power as well as vintage diesels...

The problem is that never before has there been a change which was time dependant.   Horses to motor could slowly change by economic pressures etc.

 

The human race does not have the time to say we will hang around and change nothing for another 20 or 30 years.   If everybody in all walks of life takes the "no rush I will wait until some form of technology allows me to carry on with no change" the human race and in fact possibly all life will die out.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Jerra

[frangar]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

The problem is that never before has there been a change which was time dependant.   Horses to motor could slowly change by economic pressures etc.

 

The human race does not have the time to say we will hang around and change nothing for another 20 or 30 years.   If everybody in all walks of life takes the "no rush I will wait until some form of technology allows me to carry on with no change" the human race and in fact possibly all life will die out.

So perhaps a better idea would be to reduce the population...why should people be allowed to breed? That seems to be allowed or even encouraged and indeed people like myself who are proudly child free are seen as odd. Cutting world population would solve a lot of issues...a lot of pollution is caused by trying to produce food...especially meat...for an ever growing number of humans. 

[Flyboy]

13 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I just don't understand this pro ICE thing some people seem to have in their heads. Ok so it's a big challenge moving away from burning stuff to going electric, but that doesn't mean it cant be done. If we don't all do something then the planet is probably doomed.

I suppose funding for boat electric charging points would have to come from government grants, maybe local councils, CRT and ultimately just boaters and tax payers - what do you want me to say?

Where there's a will there's a way - but we could just say "can't" and just bury our heads in the sand I suppose.

So when are getting your electric boat?  I doubt if many of the advocates of going green are actually doing much themselves. I bet they are not running electric cars, neither are the politicians. It's a case of do as I say not do as I do.

[Johny London]

I'll get an electric car as soon as they filter down into the s/h market at a price I can afford. Actually, I don't advocate throwing away perfectly good vehicles so this could come as natural attrition over the next few years.

I hope that as boats go electric (being built from new) then the technology will become readily available, so for example you could go get an electric motor fitted in much the same way as one might now go get a new diesel engine. 

I can't just go out and build everything myself - a few can but most can't. But I'll happily take it once available.

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, frangar said:

So perhaps a better idea would be to reduce the population...why should people be allowed to breed? That seems to be allowed or even encouraged and indeed people like myself who are proudly child free are seen as odd. Cutting world population would solve a lot of issues...a lot of pollution is caused by trying to produce food...especially meat...for an ever growing number of humans. 

Two thoughts.

 

First is I suspect population reduction will come.  I know many couples with no children I am related to at least 3. hina tried it and it wasn't a howling success.

 

The other point is change in population is a slow process unless you are advocating genocide of some sort.  We don't have time to wait for population reduction without taking other steps as well.

[frangar]

1 minute ago, Flyboy said:

So when are getting your electric boat?  I doubt if many of the advocates of going green are actually doing much themselves. I bet they are not running electric cars, neither are the politicians. It's a case of do as I say not do as I do.

Indeed. We recently replaced our car...looked at electric but they simply don’t have the range or size we need for work...so we got a diesel SUV...if we were forced into an electric vehicle I wonder if our clients would mind paying for the extra time it would take to get to them or indeed mind if the time critical job was delayed? Maybe in 10 years technology might be there but it’s not at moment...Even plug in hybrids are very rarely plugged in. 

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

So when are getting your electric boat?  I doubt if many of the advocates of going green are actually doing much themselves. I bet they are not running electric cars, neither are the politicians. It's a case of do as I say not do as I do.

No it isn't it should be a case of every body doing what they can.  Not everybody is in a position to do everything they would like/should.   Accepting something needs done and doing what you can makes a difference.  Even if it is just convincing others to follow your lead.

[frangar]

2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Two thoughts.

 

First is I suspect population reduction will come.  I know many couples with no children I am related to at least 3. hina tried it and it wasn't a howling success.

 

The other point is change in population is a slow process unless you are advocating genocide of some sort.  We don't have time to wait for population reduction without taking other steps as well.

We could stop producing meat for food very quickly. I’ve been happily veggie for over 30 years. That would be quite a step forward. 

[DandV]

2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The problem is that never before has there been a change which was time dependant.   Horses to motor could slowly change by economic pressures etc.

 

The human race does not have the time to say we will hang around and change nothing for another 20 or 30 years.   If everybody in all walks of life takes the "no rush I will wait until some form of technology allows me to carry on with no change" the human race and in fact possibly all life will die out.

Agree changes need to happen urgently, therefore it is necessary as a society and as individuals to urgently identify where the biggest displacements of fossil fuel use can be easily acheived and get them underway now. Push for more electrification of railway lines and better public transport to reduce private car use. Push for and take advantage of incentives to install solar and improve housing energy efficiency.  There are even a lot of small things that canal boaters can get underway with now, short of scrapping your existing diesel donk, that will make a worthwhile difference. Target using less diesel each year then the year before by more solar panels, travelling slower and reducing cruising range. Sure when your existing engine needs replacement evaluate greener options, the options will rapidly improve as a result of market and regulatory pressures.

[Jerra]

3 minutes ago, frangar said:

We could stop producing meat for food very quickly. I’ve been happily veggie for over 30 years. That would be quite a step forward. 

Being veggie isn't the answer if you are a laco veggie as opposed to Vegan.   Milk and dairy products for example.  A hundred head herd will produce 100 calves a year roughly 50% male and about 20 - 25% used for herd replacements.  What are you going to do with the 75% knock them on the head at birth?   If you do the cost of the dairy products rise as the farmer is losing part of his income.

 

The hens etc come into the picture, even considering such things as gelatine in various foods.   It really needs to be vegan or nothing.

 

We will probably move towards Veganism in fact there are rapidly growing numbers of vegans.

 

That however should suit alongside other changes.  nYou are still showing the attitude (to me at least) all sorts of changes could/should take place so long as I can carry on with my life more or less unchanged.

[frangar]

Just now, DandV said:

Agree changes need to happen urgently, therefore it is necessary as a society and as individuals to urgently identify where the biggest displacements of fossil fuel use can be easily acheived and get them underway now. Push for more electrification of railway lines and better public transport to reduce private car use. Push for and take advantage of incentives to install solar and improve housing energy efficiency.  There are even a lot of small things that canal boaters can get underway with now, short of scrapping your existing diesel donk, that will make a worthwhile difference. Target using less diesel each year then the year before by more solar panels, travelling slower and reducing cruising range. Sure when your existing engine needs replacement evaluate greener options, the options will rapidly improve as a result of market and regulatory pressures.

How about stopping all flights taken for pleasure? Holidays abroad are far from a necessity after all....somehow I don’t think that whilst being effective would be very popular.  

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, DandV said:

Agree changes need to happen urgently, therefore it is necessary as a society and as individuals to urgently identify where the biggest displacements of fossil fuel use can be easily acheived and get them underway now. Push for more electrification of railway lines and better public transport to reduce private car use. Push for and take advantage of incentives to install solar and improve housing energy efficiency.  There are even a lot of small things that canal boaters can get underway with now, short of scrapping your existing diesel donk, that will make a worthwhile difference. Target using less diesel each year then the year before by more solar panels, travelling slower and reducing cruising range. Sure when your existing engine needs replacement evaluate greener options, the options will rapidly improve as a result of market and regulatory pressures.

I would agree, however the argument still seems to me make all the changes you like but don't touch my prefered hoby/lifestyle.   To be effective all the changes being suggested are needed along with those people are trying to resist.

 

Just now, frangar said:

How about stopping all flights taken for pleasure? Holidays abroad are far from a necessity after all....somehow I don’t think that whilst being effective would be very popular.  

How about stopping all flights.   In this day and age there is little need for a person to be there in person.   We are still coming up against the here is a change you acn make just don't do anything which will prevent my pleasure attitude.

 

In which case life is probably doomed.   The problem is very well illustrated here by the number of people who are trying to find every method making chnage which avoids reducing cruising.

[DandV]

Just now, frangar said:

How about stopping all flights taken for pleasure? Holidays abroad are far from a necessity after all....somehow I don’t think that whilst being effective would be very popular.  

Havn't quite got to ceasing pleasure flying but certainly reducing our carbon footprint was a factor in selling our canal boat on your side of the world reducing our air mile accumulation down to near zero. Bought a car with the proceeds, it needs it's second refuel this year!

[frangar]

Just now, Jerra said:

 

 

How about stopping all flights.   In this day and age there is little need for a person to be there in person.   We are still coming up against the here is a change you acn make just don't do anything which will prevent my pleasure attitude.

 

 

I’d have no problem with flights being stopped. Whilst I sometimes work abroad and need to take a flight if they were banned my clients would have to hold events in this country which would make my life much easier! I haven’t gone abroad  for a holiday for 15 years and have no intention to. 

 

However i doubt the rest of the population would be so happy....yet the pollution from one long haul flight is probably more than the output of all inland boating for a year

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

However i doubt the rest of the population would be so happy....yet the pollution from one long haul flight is probably more than the output of all inland boating for a year

But the do-gooders who don't want their holidays interfered with will state :

 

"That is high altitude pollution, it doesn't have any effect on the pollution levels in our cities, the pollution from one boat in London adds more street level pollution than ?? aircraft per year"

 

It is only natural that the figures will be biased towards the speakers own lifestyle.

 

Change by 'evolution' can be worked with and accepted - change by 'revolution' will always be resisted.

[DandV]

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

I’d have no problem with flights being stopped. Whilst I sometimes work abroad and need to take a flight if they were banned my clients would have to hold events in this country which would make my life much easier! I haven’t gone abroad  for a holiday for 15 years and have no intention to. 

 

However i doubt the rest of the population would be so happy....yet the pollution from one long haul flight is probably more than the output of all inland boating for a year

I worked it out that a NZ return economy flight used about 2tonne of fuel per person. Narrow boating for six months used about 0.7 of a tonne for the two of us.

[Onionman]

49 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The problem is that never before has there been a change which was time dependant.   Horses to motor could slowly change by economic pressures etc.

 

The human race does not have the time to say we will hang around and change nothing for another 20 or 30 years.   If everybody in all walks of life takes the "no rush I will wait until some form of technology allows me to carry on with no change" the human race and in fact possibly all life will die out.

 

It's not going to take decades. Last year in the USA it was shown that, all capital costs etc included, solar electric had dipped in price below coal. Simple economics says that coal will now start to die a death. No legal changes required, no subsidies, just pure self-interest.

 

I predict exactly the same when it comes to electric vehicles and, eventually, boats.  At the moment it's a niche but once the mass market takes it up, it'll happen.  Some might just take a nudge of government effort but it's economics that'll do it.

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, Onionman said:

 

It's not going to take decades. Last year in the USA it was shown that, all capital costs etc included, solar electric had dipped in price below coal. Simple economics says that coal will now start to die a death. No legal changes required, no subsidies, just pure self-interest.

 

I predict exactly the same when it comes to electric vehicles and, eventually, boats.  At the moment it's a niche but once the mass market takes it up, it'll happen.  Some might just take a nudge of government effort but it's economics that'll do it.

We can but hope.

[DandV]

6 minutes ago, Onionman said:

 

It's not going to take decades. Last year in the USA it was shown that, all capital costs etc included, solar electric had dipped in price below coal. Simple economics says that coal will now start to die a death. No legal changes required, no subsidies, just pure self-interest.

 

I predict exactly the same when it comes to electric vehicles and, eventually, boats.  At the moment it's a niche but once the mass market takes it up, it'll happen.  Some might just take a nudge of government effort but it's economics that'll do it.

Economics, regulation and societal peer pressure, like smoking cessation. 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

You mean the jcb (very) mini digger that works for 2 hours being used intensively then needs 8 hours plugged into a diesel genny via a 110v site transformer as high voltage isn’t allowed on site & often grid  power isn’t available....

No he means a very large bulldozer! Think you should Google it apparently its way cheaper to operate than a diesel one?