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Loddon

Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

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This was the handout at the announcement and it will apply to inland waterways

 

 

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"Some measures to mitigate air pollutant emissions could involve retrofitting, or
indeed scrapping vessels, what would the estimated financial costs of such steps
be?
"

 

Uh oh!  Those smoky old diesels are not going to like that ...

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27 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Could this be the beginning of the end for diesel engines on inland waterways.

I take it that this is a rhetorical question.

 

No need for an answer as the intention could not be clearer.

 

 

Now - where are those lead/carbon batteries ?

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Can't see RNLI being happy with battery boats unless they can do 25 knots for a few hundred miles like their current diesel fleet which are built to last 50 years.  I also can't see the required investment in canal side charging points even if there is enough electricity to supply them as well as the electric for home heating, car charging, office heating and everything else.

  • Greenie 1

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MMM right remember me banging on for the last couple of years that something like this was going to happen? well its happening! In Sheffield and Rotherham we have signs to say a clear air zone consultation is happening as well, which again I have said will happen, now the reality is that most boats could be converted to electric power [and if I can do it most of you could to] and all cars the same, however this will take time to achieve as we all know. Me I would exempt all historic vessels and vehicles,and all new inland boats have to be electric, ban the sale of new diesel engines to boats to stop them being re-engined, but the rest I am afraid are either converted or scrapped, by the use of a time limit on it, and yearly tax and fuel increases should focus the mind on being greener,some may think I am wrong, but unless you want to be like the captain of the titanic, full speed ahead and bugger the icebergs until they sunk and died! then I would suggest like me you look at converting your boats in the hope that our lives and hobbies can keep on happening, because we all know governments can use a sledgehammer to crack a nut!!

I will fill in the consultation and as I have already gone down the electric route on two boats I will be saying it is possible and viable to do this.....................................


 

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Looks like when I start boating in Devon I will have to become a WAFI !

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29 minutes ago, Detling said:

Can't see RNLI being happy with battery boats unless they can do 25 knots for a few hundred miles like their current diesel fleet which are built to last 50 years.  I also can't see the required investment in canal side charging points even if there is enough electricity to supply them as well as the electric for home heating, car charging, office heating and everything else.

 

Yes a few major grid outages due to insufficient supply capacity will concentrate the minds of the politicians onto what the true cost of going electric for everything is.

Edited by cuthound
Missing worm

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I notice it calls for any anticipated ‘unforeseen consequences’ - a bit of a contradiction - but one I see is this will result in electric boats mooring in the middle of nowhere and using generators for recharging- noise, pollution and CO poisonings.

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Like anything else, you we need to look at this in proportion. Canal boats emit a tiny amount of pollution compared to commercial shipping, and it's this that the proposal is aimed at -- one huge oil tanker or container ship probably emits more pollution than every narrowboat in the UK combined. Of course it's possible that canal boats will get hit by the same hammer, unless some exemption can be negotiated like was done for historic boat engines...

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1 minute ago, IanD said:

 -- one huge oil tanker or container ship probably emits more pollution than every narrowboat in the UK combined. 

Indeed, but, the consultation is particularly referring to "Inland Waterway Boats" so I wouldn't be holding out much hope for an exemption.

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Will we get cheap electrickery on the cut, having to declare 60/40 propulsion/domestic etc?
Would certainly bring the red diesel question to an end.
If the "no renewing diesel engines" idea comes into force, there will be a big business in reconditioning existing engines. 
 

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11 minutes ago, IanD said:

Like anything else, you we need to look at this in proportion. Canal boats emit a tiny amount of pollution compared to commercial shipping, and it's this that the proposal is aimed at -- one huge oil tanker or container ship probably emits more pollution than every narrowboat in the UK combined. Of course it's possible that canal boats will get hit by the same hammer, unless some exemption can be negotiated like was done for historic boat engines...

But if the intent is to also clean up city air, then boat engines and wood burners can be a concern to their surroundings, especially if moored 2 deep in long lines......

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Indeed, but, the consultation is particularly referring to "Inland Waterway Boats" so I wouldn't be holding out much hope for an exemption.

 

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

But if the intent is to also clean up city air, then boat engines and wood burners can be a concern to their surroundings, especially if moored 2 deep in long lines......

 

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Like anything else, you we need to look at this in proportion. Canal boats emit a tiny amount of pollution compared to commercial shipping, and it's this that the proposal is aimed at -- one huge oil tanker or container ship probably emits more pollution than every narrowboat in the UK combined. Of course it's possible that canal boats will get hit by the same hammer, unless some exemption can be negotiated like was done for historic boat engines...

 

2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

I notice it calls for any anticipated ‘unforeseen consequences’ - a bit of a contradiction - but one I see is this will result in electric boats mooring in the middle of nowhere and using generators for recharging- noise, pollution and CO poisonings.

I think we need to look at the dates on these things 2025 is six years in the future, if boat builders only build electric boats from now on, if replacement diesel engines cant be fitted either with new or reconditioned we will be well on the way to cleaning up the cut.

Alternatively years ago my mate Frank Cheetham ran a fleet of narrowboats out of whaley bridge, they were LPG powered clean, cheap and safe if installed properly, diesel engines can be converted to run on LPG, so maybe this would be a better way forward for older boats?

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17 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

Alternatively years ago my mate Frank Cheetham ran a fleet of narrowboats out of whaley bridge, they were LPG powered clean, cheap and safe if installed properly, diesel engines can be converted to run on LPG, so maybe this would be a better way forward for older boats?

I am not sure that is totally true unless a whole new gas injection system is fitted to replace the diesel system and that will probably uneconomic. The diesels I have seen using LPG seem to add a certain percentage of LPG to the intake but still initiate combustion with diesel injection. The gas causes the engine to develop more power so it tries to rev up and the governor reduces the diesel injected to maintain the set speed. This uses less diesel and probably cleans up the  emissions.

 

I note the Reading Transport natural gas buses are five cylinder spark ignition (petrol) units so initiate combustion by spark.

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Would water cooled wet exhausts stop particulates getting into the atmosphere?

If so many boats with indirect cooling would be ok.

 

 

Clutching at straws

 

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10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am not sure that is totally true unless a whole new gas injection system is fitted to replace the diesel system and that will probably uneconomic. The diesels I have seen using LPG seem to add a certain percentage of LPG to the intake but still initiate combustion with diesel injection. The gas causes the engine to develop more power so it tries to rev up and the governor reduces the diesel injected to maintain the set speed. This uses less diesel and probably cleans up the  emissions.

 

I note the Reading Transport natural gas buses are five cylinder spark ignition (petrol) units so initiate combustion by spark.

They were converting 2.7 nissan diesels that fit in London black cabs years ago they required new pistons to reduce compression to 13 to 1 injectors removed and plugs fitted and an ignition system to replace the diesel pump etc. They worked well and were a very simple monopoint system. Now days it would be a stand alone injection system so would be cleaner and more controlled.

All this is cheaper than converting to electric and they would still have a good range, it would also  spring a whole new industry to the canals 😊. Another plus is the LPG could be used in heating systems getting rid of dirty coal stoves so two for the price of one

4 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Would water cooled wet exhausts stop particulates getting into the atmosphere?

If so many boats with indirect cooling would be ok.

 

 

Clutching at straws

 

It wouldnt get rid of the NOX it would just kill all waterlife in canals I suspect. Have you thought of sails and sideboards to act as keels?🙃

Edited by peterboat

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It wouldnt get rid of the NOX it would just kill all waterlife in canals I suspect

Well three of my previous boats and the current boat have had wet exhausts, 2 petrol 2 diesel ;)

 

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1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Well three of my previous boats and the current boat have had wet exhausts, 2 petrol 2 diesel ;)

 

Its not the norm though is it Julian? I did see a narrowboat today with a wet exhaust pass me though, it was still smoking like a bugger though

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6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Its not the norm though is it Julian? I did see a narrowboat today with a wet exhaust pass me though, it was still smoking like a bugger though

Might not be the norm but its an easy simple conversion .

Mine is  that way because cooling 50hp in a NB with skin tanks is not easy, much the same as cooling 120hp on the barge.

 

I like big power/weight ratios ;)

 

Edited by Loddon

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18 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Might not be the norm but its an easy simple conversion .

Mine is  that way because cooling 50hp in a NB with skin tanks is not easy, much the same as cooling 120hp on the barge.

 

I like big power/weight ratios ;)

 

I like my silent electric motor that costs nowt to run

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9 minutes ago, frangar said:

Well if anyone thinks they are taking either my vintage boat engine or my 40 year old Land Rover off me they can jog on...it’s about time we stood up to this political bullshit. How about banning all air travel first? 

And there lies the truth. Inland waterways boats are a miniscule part of pollution. governments are actively encouraging air travel which is set to double in less than twenty years. this is the usual cows droppings PC rubbish we get theses days. We are light years away from having electric vehicles of any sort that can replace ice. Apart from the fact that solar produces diddly squat in winter, even in summer continuous days cruising is still pie in the sky without the internal combustion engine replacing the lectricity. 

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I like my silent electric motor that costs nowt to run

Peter old bean. I will put money you cannot cruise 8 hour days in the winter without some sort of charging regime. Solar is shite in January.

  • Greenie 2

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I'm not sure my HISTORIC 1943 2L2 should be destroyed by these office dwelling revolutionaries joined to the same Government bent on seeing a third runway at Heathrow, most of the Southern Thames Estuary destroyed by a new airport and the whole major motorway network expanded to a 4 lane processionway whilst reducing police numbers to stop dangerous driving and speeding.

 

 

 

  • Greenie 1

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Should be a straightforward engineering job to run a buried cable along towpaths with charge points spaced out, if it was run in a concrete pipe mooring pins wouldn't pose a problem. 

Edited by nb Innisfree
  • Greenie 1

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