Painting a modern steel boat

[George and Dragon]

I see there are many different paints available for us to choose from when we eventually decide to repaint the boat.

I imagine that professionals will each use one brand or maybe two but what are the differences and how much weight should we attach to one brand over another?

 

 

[Cheshire cat]

It's an absolute minefield. More critical than the manufacturer is the colour. All paints fade but I don't know of any paint manufacturer who can produce a red that does not fade badly under exposure to UV light. 

[Dr Bob]

How long is a piece of string?

Paints will vary in two main ways. It's application and it's finished properties. The first is obvious. How easy is it apply etc. The second is how long will it last. You may find some yards will pay more attention to the first especially on top coats. It also depends a lot on what type of paint i.e. Single pack primers, top coats, 2 pack epoxies etc. 

If you are getting a professional to do a paint job, I would want them to use a paint from a good quality supplier as you know it will have been well tested. Companies like Jotun, International and many others. This more so for hull or immersion coatings. On a typical commercial paint job, the coast of the paint is usually circa 10% so why risk it. I personally would go for a top end manufacturer for the best chance of long term success. Many people though would have great results from the lesser known suppliers 

[George and Dragon]

Oh no. All I've achieved is to realise how little I know. No, it's worse than that: I don't know how little I know

[dccruiser]

I recently painted mine with Johnstones metal paints with good results, but I did take the boat back to bare metal, put on 3 primer coats , 4 undercoats and 3 top coats  

 

Rick

[Tonka]

But why do we just accept that red paint will fade. It is the same price as other colours . If it not up to job then surely it should not be for sale. We should not accept it until it is fit for the job

[dave moore]

Tonka, a question I’ve often wondered about myself. It seems to be a problem across the spectrum, I’ve seen it on cars too, and I believe their paint to be water based, rather than the oil based enamels used by most in the boat painting industry. On top of that, the red I use in the signwriting business tends to be more expensive to buy than other colours, maybethe pigments used in the manufacture are costlier, I don’t know....

Having said that, one of the unwritten rules of boat painting, at least to us old timers, is “ You need a bit of red on a boat” ..at least a bit. The only solution I’ve found, so far, is to varnish the red before it starts to degrade, though that has implications for future care. 

To the OP: For what it’s worth, the painters I work with favour a variety of brands, all specialist coatings. In no particular order:

Symphony, Epithanes, Craftmaster and various 2pack paints whose brands I don’t know. Bear in mind that these are all used in indoor situations where conditions are controlled. Good luck!

[Gareth E]

If you're going to do the job yourself I'd suggest choice of paint should be well down the pecking order. Far more important is meticulous preparation. Even if you're not going down the bare metal route it really is hard work removing every tiny blemish that might just harbour a bubble of rust. And then rust treatment, primer, undercoat....

 

As for paint, Rylards green discoloured badly after not very long whereas Crown Solo is still perfect after 5 years, in the areas that I prepped properly.  

[blackrose]

5 hours ago, Tonka said:

But why do we just accept that red paint will fade. It is the same price as other colours . If it not up to job then surely it should not be for sale. We should not accept it until it is fit for the job

Quite simply, red paint often degrades faster than other colours because it absorbs higher energy (shorter wavelength) light. 

 

So unfortunately the paint manufacturers are up against natural laws of physics and chemistry that prevent one product lasting as long as others. I imagine all the colours are a similar cost to produce so consequently they are the same retail cost. 

 

Perhaps education is the key here rather than not having red paint for sale at all, as you seem to be suggesting? Nobody is forced to accept red paint after all. 

[Sea Dog]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

Quite simply, red paint often degrades faster than other colours because it absorbs higher energy (shorter wavelength) light. 

By extension, those that are affected least are...?

[DandV]

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

By extension, those that are affected least are...?

And another complication is that stable heavy metal pigments, think lead, cadmium, cobalt, etc are severely toxic,  and therefore no longer acceptable. The currently acceptable lower toxicity substitutes are generally less stable.

 

[GrahamSop]

19 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

By extension, those that are affected least are...?

Blues

[Sea Dog]

14 minutes ago, DandV said:

And another complication is that stable heavy metal pigments, think lead, cadmium, cobalt, etc are severely toxic,  and therefore no longer acceptable. The currently acceptable lower toxicity substitutes are generally less stable.

 

One has to wonder if Vauxhall's legendary fading red, far from being the rubbish it appeared to be, was actually ahead of its time then?  (No you don't, it was actually rubbish!) 

 

Of course, all these paints would benefit from a regular UV  protective waxing, but that leaves you open to being identified as the seemingly ultimate in canal undesirables... a shiny boater!  

[bizzard]

An old friend of mine that was a vehicle paint sprayer and trouble shooter for the old vehicle paint company ''Gipgloss'' once told me that rain water globules resting on paintwork, especially flat surfaces acted as tiny magnifying lenses, magnifying the sun, which gradually scorched the paint, especially reds and made worse by the use of wax polishes which made the globules bigger and more prominant like chicken pox spots or even bubonic pustules.  The desease began as pale spots all over that coudn't be rubbed out until eventually the spots joined forces until the whole surface was scorched and went pale and dull.  This was in the days of cellulose, acrylic and enamel paints.  Pale, non red colours were not affected as much though.

Edited August 23, 2018 by bizzard

[Jen-in-Wellies]

I used Craftmaster Alfa Red for the red bits on my boat. Didn't know at the time, but this shade has a reputation for being very colour stable for a red pigment. Ten years later, it still looks good.

 

Pigments will vary widely in cost, yet people expect to pay by volume of paint, not by colour, so the pressure is on the manufacturer to use low cost colours. Laws on toxicity remove many potential pigments, so makers have an ever changing balancing act to get legal paint that is easy to use, colour fast

, at a price that people will pay.

 

Just a thought. No idea if this is true, but maybe a bit of science. UV light in daylight is higher energy, so more likely to break molecular bonds and degrade paint. Blue paint is blue because it reflects blue light and absorbs light to the red end . Red paint reflects red and absorbs the higher energy blue, perhaps in to the ultra violet too and is more easily degraded?

 

Jen

Edited August 23, 2018 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Boater Sam]

We used Ault & Wiborg paints on company vehicles. The red did not fade in the life of the van.

Unfortunately the company seems to have gone.

My red panels on the boat painted with this paint 8 years ago are still very red, no obvious fading or matting. 

[NB Esk]

57 minutes ago, bizzard said:

An old friend of mine that was a vehicle paint sprayer and trouble shooter for the old vehicle paint company ''Gipgloss'' once told me that rain water globules resting on paintwork, especially flat surfaces acted as tiny magnifying lenses, magnifying the sun, which gradually scorched the paint, especially reds and made worse by the use of wax polishes which made the globules bigger and more prominant like chicken pox spots or even bubonic pustules.  The desease began as pale spots all over that coudn't be rubbed out until eventually the spots joined forces until the whole surface was scorched and went pale and dull.  This was in the days of cellulose, acrylic and enamel paints.  Pale, non red colours were not affected as much though.

Luv it, who else could have worked "bubonic pustules " into a paint thread?

 

 

 

[bizzard]

12 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

We used Ault & Wiborg paints on company vehicles. The red did not fade in the life of the van.

Unfortunately the company seems to have gone.

My red panels on the boat painted with this paint 8 years ago are still very red, no obvious fading or matting. 

And previousely Berger paints, factory was in Selinas lane Chadwell Heath Essex. I for extra money used to overnight take a couple of 40 gallon drums of paint in my van to the Nissan car plant in Sunderland for a courier van company whose vehicles I used to maintain. These were emergeny runs when they'd run out of certain colours.

[Dr Bob]

49 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I used Craftmaster Alfa Red for the red bits on my boat. Didn't know at the time, but this shade has a reputation for being very colour stable for a red pigment. Ten years later, it still looks good.

 

Pigments will vary widely in cost, yet people expect to pay by volume of paint, not by colour, so the pressure is on the manufacturer to use low cost colours. Laws on toxicity remove many potential pigments, so makers have an ever changing balancing act to get legal paint that is easy to use, colour fast

, at a price that people will pay.

 

Just a thought. No idea if this is true, but maybe a bit of science. UV light in daylight is higher energy, so more likely to break molecular bonds and degrade paint. Blue paint is blue because it reflects blue light and absorbs light to the red end . Red paint reflects red and absorbs the higher energy blue, perhaps in to the ultra violet too and is more easily degraded?

 

Jen

I am not convinced about these 'high end of the energy spectrum' theories. You may well be right as I dont know colour chemistry well, but red pigments tend to be based on Azo chemistry (lots of nitrogen containing organic rings) and these tend to break down much easier than other pigments....therefore reds just seem to be less stable in the long term. Fully agree that toxicity concerns will have meant the 'best' colourfast pigments may have been replaced by less good ones. The best answer is to paint the boat blue. I do like red on a footy shirt though!

[bizzard]

20 minutes ago, NB Esk said:

Luv it, who else could have worked "bubonic pustules " into a paint thread?

 

 

 

I know, I'm plagued with ideas like that.  

[matty40s]

13 hours ago, dave moore said:

 

 

 

To the OP: For what it’s worth, the painters I work with favour a variety of brands, all specialist coatings. In no particular order:

Symphony, Epithanes, Craftmaster and various 2pack paints whose brands I don’t know. Bear in mind that these are all used in indoor situations where conditions are controlled. Good luck!

We use what the customer requests, if its just a colour we steer them towards Masons P type mixed by Symphony, International paints are generally good, normal RAL types (mixed by Symphony, or Craftsmaster. We steer clear of epithanes - we have had drying issues and the expense along with the brand flowing agents and matting agents makes us non fans. 

Primers we use Crafsmaster Grey, usually on a base of BondaPrimer.  Undercoats are either Craftsmaster or Symphony mixed products.

We stopped using Sayers Paints(Northants) as we had major issues with paints not drying followed by paints skinning over in the tin within 24 hours, greens not mixed properly(yellow streaks - even after much mechanical stirring and thinning). 

We binned probably 20 litres of paint over 2 boat paints before finally losing faith in them. There were lots of other issues as well - ordering 5 x 1l tins of paint and getting a 5 litre tin - after the 2nd time we just sent the driver back and refused delivery.

[mark99]

You can rescue the maroons and reds <as Dave M suggests>.

 

Before

 

 

 

 

After varnishing with an alkyd (NOT polyurethane) varnish. Which you then have to top up every 2/3 years. Yes the dribble was caught.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by mark99

[Fly Navy]

It doesn't matter what paint supplier you use, these days - all of them meet the required standards of longevity, application, opacity etc etc.

It boils down to (as some have already stated) the 6 P.s: Professional Preperation Prevents P*ss Poor Performance.

7/8ths of the time and effort is in the preparation and the remaining 1/8th is the result.

Once you have the result you desire, then because the boat is exposed to the atmosphere 100% of the time, you MUST ensure that you maintain the finish.

A wash and polish atleast once a month will stave off 90% of the problems associated with poor paintwork.

 

[dave moore]

I agree with the fractional value offered in the last post. Most of the coach painters I work with spend much of the day in preparation, applying paint is a small part of the working day. “ If you think you can get away with it, you can’t “ is a relevant maxim in the boat painter’s world.

[Dr Bob]

4 hours ago, dave moore said:

I agree with the fractional value offered in the last post. Most of the coach painters I work with spend much of the day in preparation, applying paint is a small part of the working day. “ If you think you can get away with it, you can’t “ is a relevant maxim in the boat painter’s world.

When I worked as Technical manager of our speciality paints group in the 80's, it was typical that the cost of the coatings in a big (or even small) commercial contract, ie painting oil storage tanks, painting big VLCCS etc was 10% for the paint and 90% for the rest of the work.