Diesel 'types'

[Bobbybass]

Hi...Down the Thames way and being told fuel is £1.30 before the split.

 

A garage near home...does red diesel fo 70p.....and white diesel is quite cheap....cheaper than £1.30

 

Can I run my Volvo Penta on the 'down the road garage red '...or ordinary White diesel..?

 

 

Tah

[RLWP]

Yes

 

Richard

[Alan de Enfield]

If you wish to be totally correct :

 

Technically - Yes

Legally - No

 

Red diesel sold by a garage will not have the duty on it that is required to be paid by Leisure boaters when the fuel is used for propulsion.

 

In reality - go for it, the chance of prosecution is very small.

[X Alan W]

If you wish to be totally correct :

 

Technically - Yes

Legally - No

 

Red diesel sold by a garage will not have the duty on it that is required to be paid by Leisure boaters when the fuel is used for propulsion.

 

In reality - go for it, the chance of prosecution is very small.

Could you please enlighten me on this as I was always under the impression that the pump price to the buyer included the relevant duty /tax my brother is into Vintage Tractors & with attending Shows /rallies over a good part of England so buys his Red diesel from various outlets the receipts he get from garage/ boatyard seem to declare the same mark up of duty, but maybe I've got it wrong.

[Alan de Enfield]

Could you please enlighten me on this as I was always under the impression that the pump price to the buyer included the relevant duty /tax my brother is into Vintage Tractors & with attending Shows /rallies over a good part of England so buys his Red diesel from various outlets the receipts he get from garage/ boatyard seem to declare the same mark up of duty, but maybe I've got it wrong.

 

This was discussed on another thread where it was pointed out that to sell diesel to 'leisure boaters' you had to be registered with HMRC,(for that purpose - not just a fuel seller) collect money on their behalf and pay HMRC the proportion used for propulsion.

 

Garages supplying 'agricultural' users are not registered as seller to 'Leisure Boaters' to cannot (legally) sell the fuel for that use. The argument of course being that they sell diesel into cans and have no knowledge what the user does with it.

 

I buy red diesel for agricultural usage ( tractors, diggers etc) and have to sign a declaration stating that fact.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[LEO]

Could you please enlighten me on this as I was always under the impression that the pump price to the buyer included the relevant duty /tax my brother is into Vintage Tractors & with attending Shows /rallies over a good part of England so buys his Red diesel from various outlets the receipts he get from garage/ boatyard seem to declare the same mark up of duty, but maybe I've got it wrong.

 

Hi,

 

It is an interesting one with tractors and red diesel - I thought the tractor was limited to a short distance it could be used on public highways around the farm on which it could travel using red diesel.

 

This can cause problems for vintage vehicles attending events such as the steam fair held in Dorset.

 

A friend who travels down in his 1940's Foden/Gardner timber tractor is careful about this, (he travels from Oxfordshire)

[Sea Dog]

I believe that red diesel served into containers is exempt from the usage split declaration. Since you probably won't be filling the boat tank at 'a garage near home', you can take a few 70 pennorths with a clear conscience. Someone will be able to confirm whether my belief is well founded.

[Dave_P]

If you wish to be totally correct :

 

Technically - Yes

Legally - No

 

Red diesel sold by a garage will not have the duty on it that is required to be paid by Leisure boaters when the fuel is used for propulsion.

 

In reality - go for it, the chance of prosecution is very small.

Where does he say he's going to use it for propulsion?

[David Mack]

Where does he say he's going to use it for propulsion?

Post #1 "Can I run my Volvo Penta on the 'down the road garage red '...or ordinary White diesel..?"

 

Legally, red diesel from a supplier not registered to supply fuel for private pleasure marine use cannot be put into a fuel tank supplying an engine capable of propulsion even if you intend to run that engine only for battery charging.

[Machpoint005]

Post #1 "Can I run my Volvo Penta on the 'down the road garage red '...or ordinary White diesel..?"

 

Legally, red diesel from a supplier not registered to supply fuel for private pleasure marine use cannot be put into a fuel tank supplying an engine capable of propulsion even if you intend to run that engine only for battery charging.

 

That definitely falls into the category of "who would ever find out, who would try to find out, and who would even want to find out".

If you decide to do it, don't make a song and dance. It's not compulsory to report your every action on Farcebook (or even CWDF). .

[OldGoat]

People get far too wound up over

 

David Mack, on 18 Apr 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Post #1 "Can I run my Volvo Penta on the 'down the road garage red '...or ordinary White diesel..?"

Legally, red diesel from a supplier not registered to supply fuel for private pleasure marine use cannot be put into a fuel tank supplying an engine capable of propulsion even if you intend to run that engine only for battery charging.

 

Folks get far to would up over the issue of Red diesel.

Quite frankly the Revenue is not bothered about small quantities of fuel supplied and not used in road vehicles. When the legislation was drafted the Revenue was well aware of the pitfalls and possible misuse of fuel. They estimated that the possible loss to the Exchequer was 'small' in real terms, so not a great risk.

 

Taxation is about REVENUE - if there's little gain to them then they may not pursue action - with the rider that they can if abuse is widespread and results in substantial loss to their department.

 

So all you really have to wrestle is with your conscience

[Alan de Enfield]

 

That definitely falls into the category of "who would ever find out, who would try to find out, and who would even want to find out".

If you decide to do it, don't make a song and dance. It's not compulsory to report your every action on Farcebook (or even CWDF). .

 

see post #3

[FadeToScarlet]

Post #1 "Can I run my Volvo Penta on the 'down the road garage red '...or ordinary White diesel..?"

 

Legally, red diesel from a supplier not registered to supply fuel for private pleasure marine use cannot be put into a fuel tank supplying an engine capable of propulsion even if you intend to run that engine only for battery charging.

So in theory I can't pop a can of road diesel in from the garage down the road either?

[nb Innisfree]

If we exit the EU I wonder if this tax will be abolished as it was Brussels that insisted on it in the first place. Don't hold your breath though.

[OldGoat]

FadeToScarlet, on 19 Apr 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

So in theory I can't pop a can of road diesel in from the garage down the road either?

Yes you can -

You've (been foolish enough) to pay the full rate of road duty - so you're not defrauding the Revenue.

The retailer is allowed to sell you fuel in cans - as the assumed use is for a road vehicle

 

It's only where the retailer has a Red Diesel pump that it gets more complicated. This fuel is sold on the basis that it's not for road use. If you subsequently do so it's your liability.

If you tell the retailer you're going to put it in a boat - he may possibly refuse you - but that's because he's not sure - his licence is for generators cement mixers etc.

 

A bit long winded - but can you see the issues?

It's more about revenue than what goes where.

 

FWIW - I've heard tell that if the Revenue find Red in your vehicle tank they'll fine you for the duty on a full tank of fuel.

[BD3Bill]

 

 

FWIW - I've heard tell that if the Revenue find Red in your vehicle tank they'll fine you for the duty on a full tank of fuel.

They will go further than that. They can impound the road vehicle, they strip the engine and can tell how much Red has been put through. The red dye stains stuff in the engine over time.

They can they fine you for the mileage they believe you have done... plus a fine on top for being norty.

 

Lorry drivers regularly get their tanks 'dipped' by HMRC patrols.

[ditchcrawler]

They will go further than that. They can impound the road vehicle, they strip the engine and can tell how much Red has been put through. The red dye stains stuff in the engine over time.

They can they fine you for the mileage they believe you have done... plus a fine on top for being norty.

 

Lorry drivers regularly get their tanks 'dipped' by HMRC patrols.

So do farmers

[Bobbybass]

I think my question...was just more of an interest question...but thanks for all your answers.

 

It was really a case of 'is it a suitable fuel'..

 

When I did my RYA Inland waterways about 9 years back...the 'tester' said it wasn't... he said that the agricultural stuff...was a more raw kind of fuel and could cause damage.

 

As for the HMRC......when I was canal boating....(last 4 years back)..there was a guy called Graham in the Alrewas area...who supplied fuel in 20 litre cans. He was being checked by the police all the time (in case it was nicked)..and the HMRC who didn't like it...(as he advertised it widely)... He said (at that time) that he could sell it in 20 litre cans..but not a drop over 20 litres per can..because of a 'loophole'. He told me I could have as many 20 litre cans as I liked but not more than 20 litres in a can ...so I bought 4 cans which he emptied into my tank. Not sure if the loophole has been closed..?

 

I wondered if my RYA guy was right...and the agricultural stuff is not the same..?

[Tony Brooks]

And people wonder why I hold many RYA courses in low regard!

 

9 yeas ago red diesel and DERV (white diesel) was different but when I obtained the fuel specs from a supplier of reputable brands in my view the difference was not enough to make a major difference to most diesel engines. In those days it was all high in sulphur. Note that I stated "reputable brands". All sorts of odd things went on then like diluting diesel with white spirit or transformer oil and such like. I am sure some outlets sold some very poor quality stuff.

 

Now all legitimately sourced diesel red or DERV has to be low sulphur by law and the major UK suppliers stated they would simply dye white diesel that would be DERV with the red dye. Things have move don a bit since then because now some red is available (supposedly) without the bio-content that is mandatory for road diesel. I was told by a fuel consultant that if leaving the bio out reduces the lubricity then a lubricity additive would be added.

 

This takes no account for the odd outlet that may be happy to buy job lots of fuel of unknown origin.

 

AS far as I am concerned red or DERV are near enough the same to make no difference to the engine but DERV WILL have a bio content while red may not.

[Neil Smith]

Several years ago In the summer I ordered 1000 litres of red for my diggers, dumpers etc and when the driver started pumping it in my tank that is clear plastic it was white and the driver said because of the huge amount the farmers were buying the depot had run out of dye and I only paid for red, needless to say it went in my lorry and cars and I ordered another 1000 litres but no such luck again as it came in red this time.

 

Neil

[Arthur Brown]

Remember that red diesel has dyes other than the red one! There are scams to remove the red dye but HMRC can easily find the other taggants. Was a popular practise in Ulster once.

[Neil Smith]

When they use to do a visual check you could get away with it but now they can do more tests back at the lab.

 

Neil

[cuthound]

 

Now all legitimately sourced diesel red or DERV has to be low sulphur by law and the major UK suppliers stated they would simply dye white diesel that would be DERV with the red dye. Things have move don a bit since then because now some red is available (supposedly) without the bio-content that is mandatory for road diesel.

FAME Free is definitely available. I used to order it for standby generstors, where the tank turnover is measured in years (decades sometimes).

 

Here is one supplier, but most bulk suppliers can provide it.

 

http://fueldeliveries.co.uk/red-diesel/staffordshire/burton-upon-trent.htm