Gas pipe size

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But 10mm pipe with 5mm wall thickness is rated as 'extremely safe' as there is zero gas flow.

That’s good solid advice. Or is it a pipe dream.

[truckcab79]

Incidentally while we’re side-tracked anyway if you want to guarantee that a compression fitting leaks when ‘over-tightened’ then slacken it off and re-tighten. Guaranteed leak every time. 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, truckcab79 said:

 

 

I certainly would’ve reuse pipe that had been pinched but first install it makes no odds. 

And I wouldn't argue with the most experienced people on the inland waterways of the UK.

Best you just do what you want on your own boat without laying down the law to other people.

[truckcab79]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

And I wouldn't argue with the most experienced people on the inland waterways of the UK.

Best you just do what you want on your own boat without laying down the law to other people.

Maybe re-read the thread. I asked questions and queried clearly incorrect answers.  Don’t start them off again. it’s only just calmed down   😂😂😂

 

Unfortunately with forums everyone claims to be the most informed person on the subject. Fact is it’s all faceless so it may or may not be true.  For all I know l they’ve never seen a boat. (And the same goes for me too). 😂. I’d rather not just assume some faceless bod on a forum is gods gift to boats if it’s all the same with you.  When I get info that is clearly wrong stated as fact then I’m entitled to question it. 
 

Unless you know them all personally then to be honest you’ve only got their word for it that they’re so knowledgable. My own short experience on here is actually that first hand  experience of the practical stuff is in short supply. Plenty of opinions, which isn’t the same thing. 
 

As with all forums. Ask questions, supply answers where you can and be mindful that you don’t necessarily know everything. Works for most things in fact. 

[TandC]

Out of interest, (edit: obviously I mean this aside from the key benefit around safety/less prone to split etc) 

 

does the 1mm wall thickness pipe have any noticeable differences (pros or cons) over the cheaper, more readily available (as in, Screwfix versus more specialist supplier)...  presume that it was used on my boat for convenience and because it was known that it would pass a BSS. 

 

I.e. - is the thicker wall easier to bend without deforming, or the opposite?   

 

 

 

(what would also be helpful if moderators could just delete all the sh*te that bungs up threads where people are trying to find useful information) 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by TandC

[truckcab79]

10 minutes ago, TandC said:

Out of interest, does the 1mm wall thickness pipe have any noticeable differences (pros or cons) over the cheaper, more readily available (as in, Screwfix versus more specialist supplier)...  presume that it was used on my boat for convenience and because it was known that it would pass a BSS. 

 

I.e. - is the thicker wall easier to bend without deforming, or the opposite?   

 

(what would also be helpful if moderators could just delete all the sh*te that bungs up threads where people are trying to find useful information) 

 

 

Couldn’t agree more. 🙄

 

As far as bending is concerned it’s worth the price of a decent bender (no laughing at the back). I’ve never had any luck with bending springs on 15/22mm. Can’t recall what brand I have for that but it makes it so much easier.  
 

For little stuff I use a Rothenberger. there are cheaper but even the rothenberger is only about £30. Well worth it for clean bends and once you have one you can dispense with some fittings. Less fittings, less chance of leaks.  The Rotheerger will bend any thickness with ease.    
 

You can bend small stuff round your knee or a bottle but it’s never as neat and quite difficult on small radii. 
 

Worth downloading a pipe-bending guide too. Will tell you how to measure and mark your pipe for bends. Saves an awful lot of wastage as once bent you don’t get a second chance. 
 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by truckcab79

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, TandC said:

Out of interest, does the 1mm wall thickness pipe have any noticeable differences (pros or cons) over the cheaper, more readily available (as in, Screwfix versus more specialist supplier)...  presume that it was used on my boat for convenience and because it was known that it would pass a BSS. 

 

I.e. - is the thicker wall easier to bend without deforming, or the opposite?   

 

(what would also be helpful if moderators could just delete all the sh*te that bungs up threads where people are trying to find useful information) 

 

 

Primarily it is how well annealed the copper pipe is that determines how easily it bends without deforming from the round.

If you need tighter bends than just easy curves it is sometimes better to anneal  the pipe first.

Having a thicker wall will help avoid the kinking and deforming of the pipe that often occurs when bent by hand. 

Bending with an internal spring is better than just freehand but 10mm internal springs can be tricky to use.

External springs I have never found to be satisfactory, probably because you cannot see the pipe whilst bending. 

Bending around a grooved former is better.

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Jon57 said:

That’s good solid advice. Or is it a pipe dream.

That's the way Rod does it.

[truckcab79]

48 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

Couldn’t agree more. 🙄

 

As far as bending is concerned it’s worth the price of a decent bender (no laughing at the back). I’ve never had any luck with bending springs on 15/22mm. Can’t recall what brand I have for that but it makes it so much easier.  
 

For little stuff I use a Rothenberger. there are cheaper but even the rothenberger is only about £30. Well worth it for clean bends and once you have one you can dispense with some fittings. Less fittings, less chance of leaks.  The Rotheerger will bend any thickness with ease.    
 

You can bend small stuff round your knee or a bottle but it’s never as neat and quite difficult on small radii. 
 

Worth downloading a pipe-bending guide too. Will tell you how to measure and mark your pipe for bends. Saves an awful lot of wastage as once bent you don’t get a second chance. 
 

 

To be fair that didn’t really answer your question. Yes it’s going to be safer as it’s slightly thicker. It’ll be harder to bend but still easy and it’ll be less inclined to deform when you bend it, but using the right tools neither will deform.  If it does you’re either not using the correct tools or trying to bend too tight a radius and should be using the appropriate fitting instead.  

[Tacet]

Truckcab is/was quite correct insofar as the BSS does not specify wall thickness of gas pipe.  For what it's worth, neither does the RCR/RCD - beyond requiring it to be both suitable and safe.  There are doubtless other standards/recommendations that specify wall thickness- but those who claim these are mandatory in truckcab's situation are unable to explain why.

 

Which pipes are safe/safer/safest is a separate discussion.  

[truckcab79]

3 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Truckcab is/was quite correct insofar as the BSS does not specify wall thickness of gas pipe.  For what it's worth, neither does the RCR/RCD - beyond requiring it to be both suitable and safe.  There are doubtless other standards/recommendations that specify wall thickness- but those who claim these are mandatory in truckcab's situation are unable to explain why.

 

Which pipes are safe/safer/safest is a separate discussion.  

Thank you. Precisely the point I was making. 
 

And unsurprisingly still no sign of the proof of assertions otherwise that was requested at least twice. Just a few not very thinly veiled ‘way out’ posts suggesting to me that I would be banned from the forum for daring to question somebody’s entirely incorrect information. 🙄
 

This forum needs to calm down and just talk about boats in my humble opinion.  Be much more interesting.  

[Ronaldo47]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

More pertinently IIRC, the three classes were hardened to different degrees. From memory one was thick-wall soft copper i.e. hand-bendable, one was "half-hard" so was rigid but could be bent in a tube bender, and the last was "thin-wall hard" and would snap if you tried to bend it. 

That's correct. When in the mid-1970's I replumbed my house and installed central heating, I specified the half-hard (medium wall thickness) stuff for the 15mm pipe as I needed to make slow bends in places to promote gravity circulation in the central heating circuit branches, thin wall non-bendable for the 22mm for the central heating distribution pipes and the 28mm gravity circuit to the hot water tank heat exchanger, because the thinwall was significantly cheaper than the bendable stuff and I was on a tight budget.

 

In fact the builders' merchant delivered medium thickness 22mm pipe and only charged me for the thin stuff, so I invested in a 22mm bending spring.  I did manage to put some small, very large radius, bends in the 28mm thinwall stuff to avoid having dead horizontal pipe runs in the gravity circulation circuit by heating the pipe  with a blowlamp and using a home-made bending block.  It did cripple slighty in places but didn't crack.

 

The only time I have seen the fully annealed stuff being used was when the council replaced mum's incoming mains cold water pipe at around the same time. I guess nowadays plastic pipe would be used for that instead of the fully annealed copper stuff.

 

I never over-tighten compression fittings, but I do usually apply a smear of pipe jointing compound to the olive for extra security. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Ronaldo47 said:

 

I never over-tighten compression fittings, but I do usually apply a smear of pipe jointing compound to the olive for extra security.

 

 

Conex used to publish instructions on how much to tighten their fittings and it was more than you'd expect. Again from memory, and after assembling the joint finger-tight, they specified for 15mm fittings using spanners to turn the nut through a further 360 degrees, and for 22mm fittings, turning the nut a further 270 degrees (3/4 of a whole turn). 

 

No doubt the other fittings manus publish assembly instruction too but I'm faintly ashamed to say, I've never asked. 

 

 

 

[Ronaldo47]

Builders's merchants used to have racks of manufacturers' documentation, but I can't recall seeing any on compression fitting assembly. I tighten until I get what feels like the right resistance. I still have a very useful set of Osma leaflets I picked up more than 40 years ago, with fully dimensioned drawings of their soil and waste fittings and comprehensive installation instructions.  Most of the fittings are still in production today. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Conex used to publish instructions on how much to tighten their fittings and it was more than you'd expect. Again from memory, and after assembling the joint finger-tight, they specified for 15mm fittings using spanners to turn the nut through a further 360 degrees, and for 22mm fittings, turning the nut a further 270 degrees (3/4 of a whole turn). 

 

No doubt the other fittings manus publish assembly instruction too but I'm faintly ashamed to say, I've never asked. 

 

 

 

We had the same from Swagelok for stainless steel. If I remember right it was 1¼ turns, but it was a long time ago 

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Builders's merchants used to have racks of manufacturers' documentation, but I can't recall seeing any on compression fitting assembly. I tighten until I get what feels like the right resistance. 

 

 

That's wrong, according to Conex.

 

See Table 7 on Page 10, here: 

https://conexbanninger.com/image/catalog/cnx_downloads/Conex-Compression-Technical-Brochure.pdf

 

https://conexbanninger.com/image/catalog/cnx_downloads/Conex-Compression-Technical-Brochure.pdf

 

 

 

 

[truckcab79]

With experience you can feel the olive give. When it does, a ‘smidge’ more and you’re good to go.  👍

[Tony Brooks]

I don't think anyone argued that CORRECTLY tightening a compression fitting will crush the olive and or pipe, but I have said that a thinner wall pipe will be more prone to crushing than a thicker wall pipe. Truckcab79 decided to try to avoid this conclusion. Whilst he is more than happy to cast assertions as to how much pipework I have done. It seems he is the less experienced because finding a crushed pipe and/or olive on a fitting Jo Public, and some so-called professionals,  had access to was not an uncommon experience, I have even found it on steel fuel pipes, and far more frequently on copper.

 

I don't really understand why, when the best practice ISOs are well-known, anyone would choose to ignore them and ask others to tell him ignoring best practice is acceptable.   However, it is his decision, and it may turn out to work perfectly well.

[truckcab79]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't think anyone argued that CORRECTLY tightening a compression fitting will crush the olive and or pipe, but I have said that a thinner wall pipe will be more prone to crushing than a thicker wall pipe. Truckcab79 decided to try to avoid this conclusion. Whilst he is more than happy to cast assertions as to how much pipework I have done. It seems he is the less experienced because finding a crushed pipe and/or olive on a fitting Jo Public, and some so-called professionals,  had access to was not an uncommon experience, I have even found it on steel fuel pipes, and far more frequently on copper.

 

I don't really understand why, when the best practice ISOs are well-known, anyone would choose to ignore them and ask others to tell him ignoring best practice is acceptable.   However, it is his decision, and it may turn out to work perfectly well.

 

🙄😂

 

You need to let go.👍😂

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, truckcab79 said:

 

🙄😂

 

You need to let go.👍😂

 

 

 

[system 4-50]

If we stuck to the technicalities of boats, we could replace this forum with a wiki in under a year, and then we could twiddle our thumbs when not boating.  🙂 (because I'm not good at using the written word).

I got my gas piping from Socal and it felt so much nicer being imperial.  They supplied my bubble testers converted to imperial as well.  I've had more difficulty though, in sourcing imperial propane.

[Tracy D'arth]

Wondering if its safe putting metric propane into imperial pipes?

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

 

I got my gas piping from Socal and it felt so much nicer being imperial.  

I initially read this as Social. 

[agg221]

8 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Wondering if its safe putting metric propane into imperial pipes?

Absolutely not. The molecules are slightly different sizes. If you put metric propane down imperial pipes it won't fit, and if you put imperial propane in metric pipes it will leak out!

 

Alec

[TandC]

I am 99% sure that SoCal no longer produce the imperial bubble testers.   I remember looking at this a year or so ago and they weren't stocked then - and still aren't now.

 

https://www.socal.co.uk/p/_4071-3838/marine-leak-detectors/alde/alde-gas-leak-detector-38

 

  I will email them in the new year and find out what the situation us.   I think they used to take the original Alde metric ones and swap out the fittings - and I suspect that they don't do it anymore. 

 

This means that if you want to install a bubble tester - which most people do - you have to use metric pipe. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by TandC