Gas pipe size

[truckcab79]

6 minutes ago, TandC said:

Mine was replaced last year in 10mm / 0.7mm pipe purchased from Screwfix and it passed BSS fine, with a 10mm bubble tester.    

Cheers.  According to most recent BSS I have it can’t really not pass as far as I can see.  Seamless, no soldered joint's and all compression fittings accessible seem to be the only stipulations..  

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Probably not a good idea to advertise the fact as both C&RT and the BSS read the forum.

 

I'd suggest you go and buy the correct stuff and comply with the specification, and then post how happy you are having used the right-piping.

 

In line with BSS it IS the right specification unless you can show me where it isn’t?   I have copies of both and I can’t see anywhere that says that BSS defers to ISO where the spec may differ?  Can you show me where they could fail it?  

[TandC]

Mine was done by a professional, card-carrying gas fitter qualified to work on boats.  I know it was from screwfix cos he went there and bought it.  Then inspected by a professional surveyor/BSS inspector the day after the installation.   I'm not sure what else you're supposed to do. 

 

Post a link to the correct pipe that these professionals should be using? 

[truckcab79]

1 minute ago, TandC said:

Mine was done by a professional, card-carrying gas fitter qualified to work on boats.  I know it was from screwfix cos he went there and bought it.  Then inspected by a professional surveyor/BSS inspector the day after the installation.   I'm not sure what else you're supposed to do. 

 

Post a link to the correct pipe that these professionals should be using? 

He’s referring to the ISO spec for gas pipe on small craft which states 0.8mm up to 12mm but there is no mention of this in any BSS exam info that I can find.  Struggle to see how they can publish a test spec and then whip out a totally different document and declare that you’ve failed it.  I’ve even checked the Jan 2023 amends and wall thickness is not mentioned at all. It could be seamless and 0.1mm thick and still pass as far as I can see. 

[TandC]

So just looking at ASAP Supplies - they do:  

https://www.asap-supplies.com/products/20-swg-copper-tube-10mm-od-10-metres-1-50151

 

States it meets BS EN 12735-1:2020 and is 1mm wall thickness.   

 

Would that be the way to use a 10mm Alde bubble tester, and still meet the wall thickness suitable to meet the ISO standard. 

 

Do all RCD-carrying boats use that thicker wall then in order to achieve compliance?   

 

[truckcab79]

1 minute ago, TandC said:

So just looking at ASAP Supplies - they do:  

https://www.asap-supplies.com/products/20-swg-copper-tube-10mm-od-10-metres-1-50151

 

States it meets BS EN 12735-1:2020 and is 1mm wall thickness.   

 

Would that be the way to use a 10mm Alde bubble tester, and still meet the wall thickness suitable to meet the ISO standard. 

 

Do all RCD-carrying boats use that thicker wall then in order to achieve compliance?   

 

Probably misunderstanding you but surely you could use the bubble tester regardless as the outer diameter is the same regardless of bore?   

 

 

The answer is probably in your post that yours was professionally fitted and passed by BSS without issue. 

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, TandC said:

So just looking at ASAP Supplies - they do:  

https://www.asap-supplies.com/products/20-swg-copper-tube-10mm-od-10-metres-1-50151

 

States it meets BS EN 12735-1:2020 and is 1mm wall thickness.   

 

Would that be the way to use a 10mm Alde bubble tester, and still meet the wall thickness suitable to meet the ISO standard. 

 

Do all RCD-carrying boats use that thicker wall then in order to achieve compliance?   

 

 

Judging by the standards of compliance in other areas I'd be very surprised if the required standards for gas pipe would be adhered to by the majority of NB builders.

 

Relying on self certification certainly leaves NBs open to abuse that other boat builders cannot do

[matty40s]

52 minutes ago, TandC said:

So just looking at ASAP Supplies - they do:  

https://www.asap-supplies.com/products/20-swg-copper-tube-10mm-od-10-metres-1-50151

 

States it meets BS EN 12735-1:2020 and is 1mm wall thickness.   

 

Would that be the way to use a 10mm Alde bubble tester, and still meet the wall thickness suitable to meet the ISO standard. 

 

Do all RCD-carrying boats use that thicker wall then in order to achieve compliance?   

 

The alde bubble tester comes with 2 collets(inserts) as well as it's own special olives to support the 10mm gas pipe described above. 

This will pass. 

Connection to a 3/8" piping is simple from here if that is already existing or preferable.

More important are clips either side of each and every joint. The bubble tester will probably need a 6mm piece of ply behind it to avoid any pipe bending the installation.

 

[truckcab79]

15 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The alde bubble tester comes with 2 collets(inserts) as well as it's own special olives to support the 10mm gas pipe described above. 

This will pass. 

Connection to a 3/8" piping is simple from here if that is already existing or preferable.

More important are clips either side of each and every joint. The bubble tester will probably need a 6mm piece of ply behind it to avoid any pipe bending the installation.

 

Cheers.   Probably be obvious if I open  the one I’ve got sat in a box waiting.  

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Judging by the standards of compliance in other areas I'd be very surprised if the required standards for gas pipe would be adhered to by the majority of NB builders.

 

Relying on self certification certainly leaves NBs open to abuse that other boat builders cannot do

But just to be clear for anyone reading this there is nothing to stop copper pipe of any wall thickness from passing the BSS. It does not have to meet the ISO standard.  At least not currently.  It’s not that builders are not adhering to a required standard.  That is the standard.  For BSS at least.  

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

It’s not that builders are not adhering to a required standard.  That is the standard.  For BSS at least.  

 

BUT it is a standard that Narrowboat builders are  saying they have used when they sign the RCD compliance certificate, and, added to that, as the RCD / RCR is now for 'life' any boat owner fitting a new piece of gas pipe that is not to spec  is also making the boat non-compliant.

[truckcab79]

26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

BUT it is a standard that Narrowboat builders are  saying they have used when they sign the RCD compliance certificate, and, added to that, as the RCD / RCR is now for 'life' any boat owner fitting a new piece of gas pipe that is not to spec  is also making the boat non-compliant.

Appreciate what you’re saying but irrelevant if they’re never tested against it surely.  I genuinely don’t know but is there a test at any point during a boats life that would question this spec?  

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Some reminders of the dangers of gas on board. The first four reports of boat gas explosions from a search.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2023-09-10/woman-seriously-injured-and-dog-feared-dead-after-boat-explosion

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/people/man-taken-to-hospital-with-burns-after-gas-explosion-on-his-boat-in-portsmouth-harbour-rnli-and-coastguard-called-3944468

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-43879459

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/15424242.man-in-hospital-after-his-boat-is-blown-open-like-a-tin-can/

 

Interestingly, at least two of these were at coastal marinas, where BSS rules and inspections do not apply. Not sure about the N Ireland one.

Why would you not do a proper job, given the potential consequences of doing a poor one?

You could argue about this, or that RCR and BSS gas rule and probably get away with not following it, but if your boat does explode and you survive, you'll have to explain why you thought this was a good idea. How does that sound, if some one is dead from what you did?

[truckcab79]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Some reminders of the dangers of gas on board. The first four reports of boat gas explosions from a search.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2023-09-10/woman-seriously-injured-and-dog-feared-dead-after-boat-explosion

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/people/man-taken-to-hospital-with-burns-after-gas-explosion-on-his-boat-in-portsmouth-harbour-rnli-and-coastguard-called-3944468

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-43879459

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/15424242.man-in-hospital-after-his-boat-is-blown-open-like-a-tin-can/

 

Interestingly, at least two of these were at coastal marinas, where BSS rules and inspections do not apply. Not sure about the N Ireland one.

Why would you not do a proper job, given the potential consequences of doing a poor one?

You could argue about this, or that RCR and BSS gas rule and probably get away with not following it, but if your boat does explode and you survive, you'll have to explain why you thought this was a good idea. How does that sound, if some one is dead from what you did?

Christ.  If someone dies solely because I’ve used completely legally a bit of pipe with a 0.1mm thinner wall than specified  in a document that isn’t what my boat is being measured against then I’ll be the first to apologise to them.  
 

What an absurd thing to post. 
😂😂😂

 

See if you can present an example of a death solely caused by this and not poor installation or maintenance and it might have a little credence.  

Edited December 28, 2023 by truckcab79

[Tracy D'arth]

Why not do the job properly and have peace of mind?😇

[Tacet]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

BUT it is a standard that Narrowboat builders are  saying they have used when they sign the RCD compliance certificate, and, added to that, as the RCD / RCR is now for 'life' any boat owner fitting a new piece of gas pipe that is not to spec  is also making the boat non-compliant.

Where is the RCR requirement relating to specific wall thickness of gas pipe?

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/schedule/1

 

Are you still maintaining that the RCD/RCR itself requires meeting certain ISOs?  You have said you would find the alleged requirement a couple of times at least, but I think it has yet to be produced.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Why not do the job properly and have peace of mind?😇

 

I was about to post the same. It's really not difficult. Just buy the right tube and use it. Or use the wrong stuff and save ten quid. 

 

Use the wrong stuff and it will probably be fine but it isn't, bear in mind the tube spec is printed on the outside of the tube so anyone looking later can see what was fitted. 

 

 

 

 

 

[blackrose]

If there's any question in my mind I always prefer to over-engineer an installation. It might cost a few more quid but you're only doing it once. 

[Tony Brooks]

It seems to me that as compression fittings are mandated, then using a thinner wall pipe makes pipe crushing under the olives more likely. With gas, I don't think that should be taken lightly.

[truckcab79]

49 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

It seems to me that as compression fittings are mandated, then using a thinner wall pipe makes pipe crushing under the olives more likely. With gas, I don't think that should be taken lightly.

You’ve obviously never fitted any if you think 0.1mm makes a difference.  What weight does ‘it seems to me’ hold?  How much plumbing have you done?  

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I was about to post the same. It's really not difficult. Just buy the right tube and use it. Or use the wrong stuff and save ten quid. 

 

Use the wrong stuff and it will probably be fine but it isn't, bear in mind the tube spec is printed on the outside of the tube so anyone looking later can see what was fitted. 

 

 

 

 

 

You’re ignoring the point that it’s not ‘the wrong stuff’ and therefore what is etched on the pipe is not a reason for failure any more than any other part of its spec is according to current regs.  
 

Nobody has yet produced anything saying that BSS requires this but if you can I’m all ears. Otherwise it’s just another example of a handful of members arguing pointlessly with made up ‘facts’. 

54 minutes ago, blackrose said:

If there's any question in my mind I always prefer to over-engineer an installation. It might cost a few more quid but you're only doing it once. 

Likewise.  I’ve not actually said what pipe I’m using 😂😂😂. I’m discussing the principle of the regs not requiring what some members are wrongly insisting they do.

 

People come to forums for info.  Regurgitating incorrect info because you think you read it on a forum somewhere helps nobody.  

 

Also. Hate to break it to you but houses are all piped jn 0.7mm thickness copper tube and they’re not all randomly exploding. Someone will now talk about additional vibration and work-hardening on a boat but smaller diameter pipes are inherently more flexible and like any installation should also be properly supported as per the BSS spec. 

So……for the benefit of not spreading incorrect information is anyone able to show where it will be a BSS fail?   

Edited December 29, 2023 by truckcab79

[blackrose]

But you asked the question and now you're ignoring the advice from members comprised of made up facts that were picked up from similar threads and have been  regurgitated for your benefit! 🤣

[truckcab79]

49 minutes ago, blackrose said:

But you asked the question and now you're ignoring the advice from members comprised of made up facts that were picked up from similar threads and have been  regurgitated for your benefit! 🤣

Forum rule No.1. Never let facts get in the way of uninformed opinion. 😂

[magnetman]

Regurgitate is a great word. We used to catch grass snakes and feed them small frogs but they often regurgitated the frogs. Mother said this was probably due to the shock of being captured. 

 

I had a garter snake in a vivarium. 

 

 

 

 

[rusty69]

I have nothing to add. The sum of my knowledge has been handed down by other human units, and regurgitated. I refer all other queries to chat GPT.

Thankyou.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

You’ve obviously never fitted any if you think 0.1mm makes a difference.  What weight does ‘it seems to me’ hold?  How much plumbing have you done?  

You’re ignoring the point that it’s not ‘the wrong stuff’ and therefore what is etched on the pipe is not a reason for failure any more than any other part of its spec is according to current regs.  
 

Nobody has yet produced anything saying that BSS requires this but if you can I’m all ears. Otherwise it’s just another example of a handful of members arguing pointlessly with made up ‘facts’. 

Likewise.  I’ve not actually said what pipe I’m using 😂😂😂. I’m discussing the principle of the regs not requiring what some members are wrongly insisting they do.

 

People come to forums for info.  Regurgitating incorrect info because you think you read it on a forum somewhere helps nobody.  

 

Also. Hate to break it to you but houses are all piped jn 0.7mm thickness copper tube and they’re not all randomly exploding. Someone will now talk about additional vibration and work-hardening on a boat but smaller diameter pipes are inherently more flexible and like any installation should also be properly supported as per the BSS spec. 

So……for the benefit of not spreading incorrect information is anyone able to show where it will be a BSS fail?   

 

 

Bloody hell, it stirkes me there there is nothing to debate. There are two standards serving different purposes. Pick the one that suits your purpose.

 

The ISO is the gold-plated standard for new installations, the BSS is a basic and cut-down set of noddy rules for inspecting an old installation for crude flaws. The BSS is cut down and less strict because it needed to be, to get it introduced when previously there was nothing. Use whichever you like. I don't care.

 

it seems to me you already decided and are just seeking support what you know in yoiur heart is th wrong decision. 

[truckcab79]

25 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Bloody hell, it stirkes me there there is nothing to debate. There are two standards serving different purposes. Pick the one that suits your purpose.

 

The ISO is the gold-plated standard for new installations, the BSS is a basic and cut-down set of noddy rules for inspecting an old installation for crude flaws. The BSS is cut down and less strict because it needed to be, to get it introduced when previously there was nothing. Use whichever you like. I don't care.

 

it seems to me you already decided and are just seeking support what you know in yoiur heart is th wrong decision. 

 

I’ll repeat it again.  I haven’t said what pipe I’m using, so don’t assume. 
 

As it happens I’ve ordered 1mm.  
 

My issue is with people on the forum stating a whole load of ‘facts’ that are basically made-up nonsense that they’re quite happy to recount to people looking for info and then defending the fact that a: they’re wrong and b: they can’t produce the ‘facts’ that they’re stating, as you can see from this thread.  I don’t get why people feel obliged to involve themselves when they have zero knowledge or experience of the subject. 
 

For the benefit of future questioners the correct answer as of todays date is that BSS does not currently state a minimum wall thickness for copper pipe on LPG gas installations but as with anything it makes sense to over-engineer and use 1.0mm. Any other answer is just making stuff up which as I said helps absolutely nobody.  
 

Remember you don’t have to reply to a thread if you don’t know the answer 😉. Better for everyone that way.  
 

Doesn’t help to say that the BSS is a watered down set of rules. As that’s the only one we’re judged against it’s the one that matters, regardless of your opinion.  It’s like taking my car for an MOT and telling me I need to make sure it’s up to the standard in Sweden because it’s better. It might be but it won’t fail in the UK. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by truckcab79

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

Remember you don’t have to reply to a thread if you don’t know the answer 😉. Better for everyone that way.  

 

 

You've been given the answer time and again. But you don't like it.