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magpie patrick

phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

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26 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

One could argue that taxation should include a weight element (like LGVs) as well as an emissions element.

 

 BEVs weigh more than their ICE equivalents.

 

Personally I would likely see the emissions element cover manufacture and end of life recycling emissions as well.

That might change though, as more cars are built to be EVs they could weigh less than the ICE car. Range isnt an issue in town cars, my Axiam mega city e is a light weight thing now I have dumped the LAs, it has a 17.5 KWH lithium polymer batteries with about 120 mile range, it's a great little car

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6 hours ago, peterboat said:

I like how people think the government care if you cant charge or park your car? Look to Japan no parking space no car! In reality their are far to many cars on the road and the virus has proven that maybe a third of the country can work from home, reps can do business by skype, zoom or team so they dont need cars or offices anymore. I reckon half the cars we have now would be enough and small electric ones would be best

You say there are far too many cars on the roads. What is your criterion for that assessment? Since cars do not come for free, I guess that almost all owners will take the view that having a car is a necessary or desirable option. At what level is the number of cars acceptable? Does that level always include your car?

 

BTW, living in rural county have to ask the question, what is this thing called public transport that folk keep mentioning?

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7 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 

 

BTW, living in rural county have to ask the question, what is this thing called public transport that folk keep mentioning?

Its something that you have to pay for a taxi to take you to to be able to use it, glad I have a free bus pass

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Public transport is great when it works. In normal times Manchester's tram system is very well supported and it's not cheap. Buses on the other hand vary tremendously from full to completely empty according to the route. Private transport of some sort will always have a place because of the inadequacies of public transport.

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4 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Public transport is great when it works. In normal times Manchester's tram system is very well supported and it's not cheap. Buses on the other hand vary tremendously from full to completely empty according to the route. Private transport of some sort will always have a place because of the inadequacies of public transport.

There isnt any in most places, only in cities and millions dont live in cities. The nearest bus stop to me at present is a mile walk and I am only just outside Banbury, go to the villages and there is zero Public transport.

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

There isnt any in most places, only in cities and millions dont live in cities. The nearest bus stop to me at present is a mile walk and I am only just outside Banbury, go to the villages and there is zero Public transport.

I am lucky bus and tram service on the doorstep. Plud I can walk into town in 5 minutes, shopping I can take the boat to the lidl supermarket and their are moorings there.

I can always remember somebody at Tinsley telling me what a great mooring it is however its finger moorings costalot and shops are distant not for me moorings like that

Edited by peterboat

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The IWA has a team working on the path towards zero carbon. The best planning for new boats is serial hybrid. Battery technology will take some years to become affordable for more than a few hours cruising and a network wide charging infrastructure will also be a huge challenge. A diesel generator, complemented by solar can charge batteries that support electric traction as well as domestic requirements. The diesel generator can eventually run on biodiesel or be replaced by a hydrogen or solid oxide fuel cell when these become viable. Engine manufacturers are promoting parallel hybrids, just like car manufacturers with "plug-ins", because that gives the internal combustion engine the biggest share of the budget. By contrast, a 3 to 6kw diesel genset and a 20Kw electric drive is a better solution, because a canal boat typically uses only three or four kw most of the time with full power used only in brief bursts, to stop the boat or negotiate a tricky river entry or exit.

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32 minutes ago, jbzoom said:

The IWA has a team working on the path towards zero carbon. The best planning for new boats is serial hybrid. Battery technology will take some years to become affordable for more than a few hours cruising and a network wide charging infrastructure will also be a huge challenge. A diesel generator, complemented by solar can charge batteries that support electric traction as well as domestic requirements. The diesel generator can eventually run on biodiesel or be replaced by a hydrogen or solid oxide fuel cell when these become viable. Engine manufacturers are promoting parallel hybrids, just like car manufacturers with "plug-ins", because that gives the internal combustion engine the biggest share of the budget. By contrast, a 3 to 6kw diesel genset and a 20Kw electric drive is a better solution, because a canal boat typically uses only three or four kw most of the time with full power used only in brief bursts, to stop the boat or negotiate a tricky river entry or exit.

Makes sense. I'm not convinced Hydrogen has a future in boats though. Fit a 100kw battery pack and you've pretty much got a week's cruising before needing a refill. If you can recharge that in 20 mins while filling up with water then it doesn't seem so unrealistic - and without all the faff of storage and distribution of compressed hydrogen, and can you imagine the BSS inspection for your hydrogen install? I'd feel much safer with a stack of batteries in a cupboard.

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On 20/11/2020 at 21:33, peterboat said:

Supercharging can charge up Trsla batteries to 80% in half an hour so it must have been a very brief stop! My mate Neil goes to London twice a week in his, supercharger whilst having breakfast at Woodall services, drives to London slow charging at the court where he works, drives home in evening drives for couple of days then repeats, has been doing this for 2 years now. He has never paid to charge and never run out of charge. 

Yes . It was a brief stop. They had driven up after work, planning on not using the car until 2 days later while it charged on the site.

Dont get me wrong tesla type cars are the future, our friends are over planners, if there had been a local supercharger all would have been well.

The infrastructure in rural australia is marginal for many things. However this is the biggest alpine tourist resort, with year round tourism.

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1 hour ago, jbzoom said:

The IWA has a team working on the path towards zero carbon. The best planning for new boats is serial hybrid. Battery technology will take some years to become affordable for more than a few hours cruising and a network wide charging infrastructure will also be a huge challenge. A diesel generator, complemented by solar can charge batteries that support electric traction as well as domestic requirements. The diesel generator can eventually run on biodiesel or be replaced by a hydrogen or solid oxide fuel cell when these become viable. Engine manufacturers are promoting parallel hybrids, just like car manufacturers with "plug-ins", because that gives the internal combustion engine the biggest share of the budget. By contrast, a 3 to 6kw diesel genset and a 20Kw electric drive is a better solution, because a canal boat typically uses only three or four kw most of the time with full power used only in brief bursts, to stop the boat or negotiate a tricky river entry or exit.

If you have a search on the conversion thread I have been saying the same  unfortunately others don't like my message,  it's the route that finesse has chosen and other boat makers at Crick  but some on here still think parallel hybrids are best ! In reality they are a water of time 

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1 hour ago, phantom_iv said:

Makes sense. I'm not convinced Hydrogen has a future in boats though. Fit a 100kw battery pack and you've pretty much got a week's cruising before needing a refill. If you can recharge that in 20 mins while filling up with water then it doesn't seem so unrealistic - and without all the faff of storage and distribution of compressed hydrogen, and can you imagine the BSS inspection for your hydrogen install? I'd feel much safer with a stack of batteries in a cupboard.

The advantage of serial hybrid with a diesel genset is that the diesel engine can be run on biofuel until a viable alternative low carbon power source is available. I agree, that may not be hydrogen, but I'm also sceptical about the viability of installing a supercharger at every water point.

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

If you have a search on the conversion thread I have been saying the same  unfortunately others don't like my message,  it's the route that finesse has chosen and other boat makers at Crick  but some on here still think parallel hybrids are best ! In reality they are a water of time 

You may well be right but how many narrowboats are water powered? Even the mills have ceased! But at least, for now, we have enough to float in - mostly.

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46 minutes ago, jbzoom said:

The advantage of serial hybrid with a diesel genset is that the diesel engine can be run on biofuel until a viable alternative low carbon power source is available. I agree, that may not be hydrogen, but I'm also sceptical about the viability of installing a supercharger at every water point.

True - the main advantage of electrics is flexibility. Charge it from solar if the sun's out, from a high powered charger, a built-in generator running on biofuels or just chuck the landlord of a canalside pub a fiver to plug a cable in while you recharge yourself with beer and sleep it off. You don't get that with Hydrogen!

Edited by phantom_iv
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I am curious what this will mean for commercial boats and any hopes of expanding industrial use. Presumably, there is currently a good environmental reason to use canals for transport where speed is not essential. However, even if the canals become electrified, they will be competing with electric lorries. The cost of energy, could be a fraction of electric lorries, but this may be just a fraction of a low cost and hence negligible. It seems like a no goer.

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17 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

There isnt any in most places, only in cities and millions dont live in cities. The nearest bus stop to me at present is a mile walk and I am only just outside Banbury, go to the villages and there is zero Public transport.

I live about 4-5 mins walk from a bus stop but there are two reasons why I am not a big user of our local bus service.

 

1 - It's a bit like the lottery, sometimes you win and a bus actually turns up at the correct time meaning you don't have to wait around in the freezing cold for over an hour till the next one decides to turn up. Sometimes you lose.

 

2 - Hell will freeze over before I will use ANY form of public transport again or at least until the Covid virus is is significantly supressed. I feel for people who have no choice.

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On 23/11/2020 at 11:19, Thomas C King said:

I am curious what this will mean for commercial boats and any hopes of expanding industrial use. Presumably, there is currently a good environmental reason to use canals for transport where speed is not essential. However, even if the canals become electrified, they will be competing with electric lorries. The cost of energy, could be a fraction of electric lorries, but this may be just a fraction of a low cost and hence negligible. It seems like a no goer.

CBOA is working with the IWA group on greener fuels.  One major operator on the Thames (GPS) has switched to HVO which is said to offer a 90% reduction in emissions although more expensive than red diesel currently.  Even electric lorries are not environmentally perfect as we are told that particulates from tyre and road wear plus brake pads constitute significant pollution plus accidents and congestion need adding to the mix.

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On 23/11/2020 at 10:02, jbzoom said:

The advantage of serial hybrid with a diesel genset is that the diesel engine can be run on biofuel until a viable alternative low carbon power source is available. I agree, that may not be hydrogen, but I'm also sceptical about the viability of installing a supercharger at every water point.

The other advantage is that you can configure the diesel to run at its optimal speed for charging (and of course the cooling goes via your calorifier).

 

So you remove the gear box and replace that with a generator (or replace the current 4 cylinder block with something smaller with a generator) and then reduce your prop shaft length and put in an electric motor.   Then as long as you can run on biodiesel you can basically be as near carbon neutral as you can get without a complete rear end on the boat.

 

 

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On 23/11/2020 at 10:48, phantom_iv said:

True - the main advantage of electrics is flexibility. Charge it from solar if the sun's out, from a high powered charger, a built-in generator running on biofuels or just chuck the landlord of a canalside pub a fiver to plug a cable in while you recharge yourself with beer and sleep it off. You don't get that with Hydrogen!

You might just get both if the hydrogen fuel cell generates electricity with batteries as a buffer store.

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On 24/11/2020 at 18:19, StephenA said:

The other advantage is that you can configure the diesel to run at its optimal speed for charging (and of course the cooling goes via your calorifier).

 

So you remove the gear box and replace that with a generator (or replace the current 4 cylinder block with something smaller with a generator) and then reduce your prop shaft length and put in an electric motor.   Then as long as you can run on biodiesel you can basically be as near carbon neutral as you can get without a complete rear end on the boat.

 

 

Exactly

 

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On 13/11/2020 at 13:06, Alan de Enfield said:

I've found throughout life that having targets incentivises folks to look for ways of achieving them.

 

If a salseman is going to be paid £1000 for acheieving his target, and £5000 for beating it by 20% I bet he will find a way of getting the business to achieve the growth.

 

 

And therein lies the contradiction...

 

We can certainly find ways to solve our environmental problems, but if our economic model continues to be based on perpetual and unsustainable increases in production and consumption, then the incremental environmental solutions that we come up with will never keep pace with the environmental impacts of economic growth.

 

It will always be unsustainable unless we can find ways to decouple economic growth from economic well-being.

Edited by blackrose
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2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

And therein lies the contradiction...

 

We can certainly find ways to solve our environmental problems, but if our economic model continues to be based on perpetual and unsustainable increases in production and consumption, then the incremental environmental solutions that we come up with will never keep pace with the environmental impacts of economic growth.

 

It will always be unsustainable unless we can find ways to decouple economic growth from economic well-being.

I have never believed in the economy of constant growth, it only ever worked for us when we raped the planet and exploited the rest of the world.

 

Look what constant population growth has done to the world.

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13 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I have never believed in the economy of constant growth, it only ever worked for us when we raped the planet and exploited the rest of the world.

 

Look what constant population growth has done to the world.

You may not like the globslisation economic model, but it's what mankind has been working towards since the first farmer yoked up a pair of oxsn.

The mantra of greed is good is endemic, one or two eccentrics are not going to stem the flood.

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On 23/11/2020 at 07:20, jbzoom said:

The IWA has a team working on the path towards zero carbon. The best planning for new boats is serial hybrid. Battery technology will take some years to become affordable for more than a few hours cruising and a network wide charging infrastructure will also be a huge challenge. A diesel generator, complemented by solar can charge batteries that support electric traction as well as domestic requirements. The diesel generator can eventually run on biodiesel or be replaced by a hydrogen or solid oxide fuel cell when these become viable. Engine manufacturers are promoting parallel hybrids, just like car manufacturers with "plug-ins", because that gives the internal combustion engine the biggest share of the budget. By contrast, a 3 to 6kw diesel genset and a 20Kw electric drive is a better solution, because a canal boat typically uses only three or four kw most of the time with full power used only in brief bursts, to stop the boat or negotiate a tricky river entry or exit.

 

This is a link to the IWA Vision Document for Sustainable Boating and the Future Narrowboat: https://www.waterways.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/IWA-Sustainable-Propulsion-Vision-September-2020.pdf

 

This iteration is for submission to Government and takes the form of a series of 'Asks'. At the last meeting of the All Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) earlier this month, the entire meeting was based around Sustainable Boating and its ramifications. On Friday, its Chairman Michael Fabricant MP sent a letter to the Chancellor outlining the APPG meeting's conclusions and detailing the key requirements (and the funding required) for the inland waterways to be able to enjoy a carbon neutral future in line with Government policy for transport, domestic heating and the like.

 

We await his response with interest.

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On 24/11/2020 at 12:28, fanshaft said:

CBOA is working with the IWA group on greener fuels.  One major operator on the Thames (GPS) has switched to HVO which is said to offer a 90% reduction in emissions although more expensive than red diesel currently.  Even electric lorries are not environmentally perfect as we are told that particulates from tyre and road wear plus brake pads constitute significant pollution plus accidents and congestion need adding to the mix.

 

Whilst there are several examples of successful serial hybrid-powered narrowboats currently navigating the inland waterways, the technology is still in its infancy and the reality is that for many years to come the diesel engine-powered craft will continue to rule supreme. After all, who in their right mind is going to ditch an engine with 20 – 30 years useful life left in it and replace same with an expensive, retro-fitted hybrid installation?

 

First generation biodiesel (of FAME fame) is not compatible with the marine environment and by 2024, when the Government objective of B12 has to be met, this will no doubt have become all too apparent. At about 86% carbon neutral this will have once appeared, upon casual examination, to have been an attractive solution. It certainly was to me when I first started using it in my own vehicles 17 years ago. Since then I've experienced all its shortcomings and suffice it to say it has never been near my boat (or its engine).

 

However, second generation biodiesel is now well and truly with us in the form of Hydro-treated Vegetable Oil (HVO) and this is what David refers to as being trialed in a fleet of tugs operating on the Thames and its estuary. It carries OEM approvals from pretty much all the main diesel engine manufacturers in the world and is superior in performance to dino-diesel (the mineral stuff). To pick two random examples, it has a shelf life of of 10 years (so diesel-bug is a thing of the past) and in recent trials in a 24-tonne Land and Water swing shovel, fuel consumption improved by 10-12% while NoX decreased by a similar amount.

 

At approximately 92% carbon neutral, it is clearly the drop in fuel for the above-mentioned parc of diesel-engined inland waterways boats, with just price and availability being potentially one of the short- to medium-term stumbling blocks.

 

 

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