phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[cuthound]

On 29/11/2020 at 19:32, peterboat said:

Yes Ian Abs has a very easy life in electric cars because brakes are hardly used with regenerative braking 

Sometimes it isnt the price of the part, its the stupidity of the car makers that requires engine and gearbox removal to change a rack!

I suppose I have been lucky we specialised in Jags, Rolls Royce and Aston Martin's Rack are easy to change 

 

Surely that depends on driving style and the drivers powers of observation?

 

The ABS on my cars over the last 25 years have only operated in icy conditions or when I have been deliberately provoking it to check it is still working.

[cuthound]

53 minutes ago, IanD said:

BEVs have bigger higher-power but actually much simpler electronics (and the things they control) than modern ICE -- compared to a modern ECU (or several) with all the components and actuators in the powertrain that it drives and controls (ignition, engine, starter/alternator, injectors, gearbox, fuel system...), often all from different suppliers with complex connections and many points of failure, a BEV powertrain is blessedly simple ?

 

Really,

 

Whilst they don't have an ECU, and I agree the motor and transmission system is simpler they require complex battery management systems & traction control systems (all thst torque has to be managed to makevthrm driveable in slippery conditions) and still require ABS, auto light sensors, auto rain wiper sensors and all of the other electronic systems we have become used to in modern cars.

 

Tesla's even use a touch screen dashboard that many owners are finding unreliable and expensive to replace.

 

I suspect that BEV's will have a design life of 7 years, the same as ICE's. It would be financial suicide for the manufacturers to do otherwise as longer design life means fewer cars sold, and thus the purchase price will be higher.

 

This risks them being price undercut by other manufacturers or having to use technology for longer than their competitors and thus being seen as old fashioned.

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Really,

 

Whilst they don't have an ECU, and I agree the motor and transmission system is simpler they require complex battery management systems & traction control systems (all thst torque has to be managed to makevthrm driveable in slippery conditions) and still require ABS, auto light sensors, auto rain wiper sensors and all of the other electronic systems we have become used to in modern cars.

 

Tesla's even use a touch screen dashboard that many owners are finding unreliable and expensive to replace.

 

I suspect that BEV's will have a design life of 7 years, the same as ICE's. It would be financial suicide for the manufacturers to do otherwise as longer design life means fewer cars sold, and thus the purchase price will be higher.

 

This risks them being price undercut by other manufacturers or having to use technology for longer than their competitors and thus being seen as old fashioned.

Yes really. I didn't say all the peripherals were simpler (they are often just the same), just the drivetrain. Which overall means, they're simpler.

 

Whether they're designed for obsolescence is a commercial decision; the fact remains that even when you include things like the BMS and traction control, they're simpler than ICE.

[cuthound]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes really. I didn't say all the peripherals were simpler (they are often just the same), just the drivetrain. Which overall means, they're simpler.

 

Whether they're designed for obsolescence is a commercial decision; the fact remains that even when you include things like the BMS and traction control, they're simpler than ICE.

 

Time will tell, whether they prove more reliable.

 

Vehicles in fleets (hire and commercial) achieve much higher mileages than those in private ownership, because they cover the mileage in a compressed timescale which minimises the effect of component ageing.

[Cheshire cat]

It's not just about mileage though. Whether its ICE or EV the manufacturers have found a new avenue to pursue. Although cars cand be made to do 200K will anyone want to?

The gizmos being put in to cars today are many and varied. Who will want to drive around in a ten year old museum piece with half the electronics not working? It's not necessarily the drivetrain that will send cars to the graveyard. 

 

As someone who has spent time mooching around in breakers yards I am still sceptical that cars do 125K on average before they are scrapped.

[Ronaldo47]

Indeed, some of the most unreliable electronic components are electrolytic capacitors with life determined by time (and temperature), not miles. As noted above, it is inappropriate to estimate vehicle life by extrapolating data from hire fleets. 

 

The electronics will almost certainly be specific to the manufacturer, not repairable by third parties, and expensive to replace, assuming replacements are still available a decade or so after manufacture.  I too have read of older cars whose instrument panels are electronic screens becoming unusable when a screen became faulty due to non-availability of spares. 

 

Last year I had a look at the control unit for the windscreen wipers of a neighbour's car.  It was totally encapsulated in a hard waterproof compound, impossible to investigate the cause to attempt a repair, and very expensive to replace.

 

There have also been problems with lead-free solder, the high tin content of which gives rise to "tin whiskers" that cause short circuits and malfunctions. That is why leaded solder continues to be used for high reliability military and medical equipment and certain automotive appications. 

 

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Surely that depends on driving style and the drivers powers of observation?

 

The ABS on my cars over the last 25 years have only operated in icy conditions or when I have been deliberately provoking it to check it is still working.

Your Abs is always on when driving, it's just not doing its stuff. Regeneration on electric/hybrid vehicles really makes a difference to your driving style or it does me, as I have said before I hardly use brakes anymore which is a great thing for saving money.  I have noticed that most garages are terrified of BEVs and hybrids and to be honest they should be worried as their workload will drop off when BEVs become the norm 

1 hour ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Indeed, some of the most unreliable electronic components are electrolytic capacitors with life determined by time (and temperature), not miles. As noted above, it is inappropriate to estimate vehicle life by extrapolating data from hire fleets. 

 

The electronics will almost certainly be specific to the manufacturer, not repairable by third parties, and expensive to replace, assuming replacements are still available a decade or so after manufacture.  I too have read of older cars whose instrument panels are electronic screens becoming unusable when a screen became faulty due to non-availability of spares. 

 

Last year I had a look at the control unit for the windscreen wipers of a neighbour's car.  It was totally encapsulated in a hard waterproof compound, impossible to investigate the cause to attempt a repair, and very expensive to replace.

 

There have also been problems with lead-free solder, the high tin content of which gives rise to "tin whiskers" that cause short circuits and malfunctions. That is why leaded solder continues to be used for high reliability military and medical equipment and certain automotive appications. 

 

We have been using specialised repairers for electronics for years its the only way of keeping older cars on the road 

[nb Innisfree]

For me it's the total unfussy driving experience of our EV, for example we ran a Merc SLK, nice car but if I wanted to quickly overtake a slow moving car I would have to use full throttle to activate kickdown and get the supercharger wound up and into the power range, I would pass the car with lots of gears changing and engine noise then on the brakes to slow back down, lots of uneccesary fuss. With our i3 it's instant power, quicker and done in near silence without touching the brake pedal, that alone does it for me, no contest. Only thing is violent accelleration from 30mph, a bit scary until you acclimatise. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by nb Innisfree

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

For me it's the total unfussy driving experience of our EV, for example we ran a Merc SLK, nice car but if I wanted to quickly overtake a slow moving car I would have to use full throttle to activate kickdown and get the supercharger wound up and into the power range, I would pass the car with lots of gears changing and engine noise then on the brakes to slow back down, lots of uneccesary fuss. With our i3 it's instant power, quicker and done in near silence without touching the brake pedal, that alone does it for me, no contest. Only thing is violent accelleration from 30mph, a bit scary until you acclimatise. 

The problem is we as EV owners are in a minority on here until you have driven one you don't know what real acceleration is ! And I had a 600hp plus shelby mustang Tesla eats it for breakfast 

[cuthound]

10 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

For me it's the total unfussy driving experience of our EV, for example we ran a Merc SLK, nice car but if I wanted to quickly overtake a slow moving car I would have to use full throttle to activate kickdown and get the supercharger wound up and into the power range, I would pass the car with lots of gears changing and engine noise then on the brakes to slow back down, lots of uneccesary fuss. With our i3 it's instant power, quicker and done in near silence without touching the brake pedal, that alone does it for me, no contest. Only thing is violent accelleration from 30mph, a bit scary until you acclimatise. 

 

Yes, I've always found thst it is best not to press the brake pedal if you want to overtake quickly! ???

Edited December 2, 2020 by cuthound
To remove a letter masquerading as a space

[nb Innisfree]

11 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes, I've always found thst it is best not to press the brake pedal if you want to overtake quickly! ???

? I wondered what I was doing wrong

Edited December 2, 2020 by nb Innisfree

[Ronaldo47]

I well remember the phenominal acceleration of the old London and Cardiff trolleybuses compared wth the contemporary diesel buses. You could run after a departing diesel bus with a good chance of catching it, but forget it with a trolleybus. This was in the days of buses with open rear platforms and series-wound DC traction motors which developed maxmum torque at zero rpm. 

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I well remember the phenominal acceleration of the old London and Cardiff trolleybuses compared wth the contemporary diesel buses. You could run after a departing diesel bus with a good chance of catching it, but forget it with a trolleybus. This was in the days of buses with open rear platforms and series-wound DC traction motors which developed maxmum torque at zero rpm. 

I have a DC series wound motor in my boat,  acceleration and braking are very good startling in fact 

[Mike Todd]

I'm not sure that easy availability of excessive acceleration is 'a good thing'. Encourages additional overtaking in marginal conditions. Rarely saves more than milliseconds.

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I'm not sure that easy availability of excessive acceleration is 'a good thing'. Encourages additional overtaking in marginal conditions. Rarely saves more than milliseconds.

Its very handy at times, but it would be a boring world if we were all the same 

[Guest]

This video is worth a watch as it gives a reasonable overview of range and what actually happens when they run out of charge.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[nb Innisfree]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

I'm not sure that easy availability of excessive acceleration is 'a good thing'. Encourages additional overtaking in marginal conditions. Rarely saves more than milliseconds.

What is excessive? When it is uncontrollable? True about encouraging overtaking in marginal conditions, but that really comes down to experience and judgement, when I was 17 I used to be encouraged in my old Ford 25bhp Anglia, a few close calls until I gained experiencen. What it does do is allow safe overtaking when it wouldn't otherwise be possible. 

[IanD]

On 29/11/2020 at 17:05, IanD said:

try entering "average car mileage before scrapping" into Google, it's really not difficult... ?

 

The point is that so long as the average is much higher than 50k miles (which it is) the exact number doesn't matter, EVs win.

I can read too, and that was exactly my point -- *always* check where a "report" came from, very often it's biased (not difficult to do with cherry-picking of numbers -- not that I'm saying they did that, but they have form...) or at the very least funded by companies with vested interests.

 

In this case, you could say the vested interest is to get people to carry on buying their ICE cars instead of Teslas... ?

It now seems that the report was indeed biased, and made questionable assumptions to support its conclusions. Who could have expected that, eh? ?

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2020/11/28/electric-vehicles-are-a-silver-bullet-for-zero-emissions--dont-believe-the-fossil-fuel-hype

 

"But many other brands have been caught napping, and failed to take the threat seriously, particularly Toyota. The UK 2030 ban announcement has clearly galvanized them into trying to stop or at least delay the inevitable using negative press. It’s no surprise that the majority of publications covering this story – such as the Daily Mail, The Times, The Telegraph and Metro – are generally considered right-wing politically, with a tendency to try to preserve the status quo."

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

This video is worth a watch as it gives a reasonable overview of range and what actually happens when they run out of charge.

 

 

Interesting. One observation though is where can I find the test done in heavy rain and cold with headlights air con and heating continuously on as in UK winter driving? How much does all the kit whack the battery? Its a hell of a lot of money for tiny cars so how much is a comfy one jaguar sized? 

[phantom_iv]

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Interesting. One observation though is where can I find the test done in heavy rain and cold with headlights air con and heating continuously on as in UK winter driving? How much does all the kit whack the battery? Its a hell of a lot of money for tiny cars so how much is a comfy one jaguar sized? 

Headlights I'd expect to make minimal difference with modern LEDs. Rain and cold are not your friends though, subtract maybe 20%.

 

For comfy Jaguar sized cars you'd have to ask Jaguar - https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html - it's a lot.

 

For more sensibly priced cars that are a bit bigger,  Hyundai Kona electric and Tesla model 3 can be had for ~£30k and £40k respectively,  

[bizzard]

And one of them can't remember which 130 odd hp could do nought to 60mph in 9 secs. My titchie Suzuki Alto, 996cc 63hp can do that in 11 secs.  I guess it's because my Alto is a heck of a lot lighter in weight, not having to lug hefty batteries about on big fat tyres with their extra road friction and noise and rubber pollution.         Tony Suzuki Downtown hoodlum.  

Edited December 3, 2020 by bizzard

[ditchcrawler]

An interesting bit on batteries about 5 minutes into this video after the chat about the Porsche 911 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Porsche announce production of wind generated E-Fuel (The algae based petrol and diesel) I commented on some weeks ago.

 

This enables ICE engines to continue to be run and meet zero emission standards.

 

Just need someone in the UK to produce it and we can all keep out petrol / diesel cars and boats.

 

Even if it comes out at 2 or 3x the price of existing diesel it will be cheaper than taking out engines and replacing them with £20k-£30k electric systems.

 

 

Porsche reveals its climate-neutral synthetic fuel for use within two years

Is this wind power to e-fuel scheme a get-out-of-jail-free card for petrol engines – and does it leave egg on the face of the UK Government?

Porsche reveals its climate-neutral synthetic fuel for use within two years (telegraph.co.uk)

 

 

Edit fur currections

Edited December 3, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[magpie patrick]

22 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

Who will want to drive around in a ten year old museum piece with half the electronics not working?

I tend to buy them in this condition, then really wear them out

[mrsmelly]

53 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

I tend to buy them in this condition, then really wear them out

Me too. I let all the shiny car mugs take the hit financially and buy nice cars with full history. My latest is 14 years old with 2 services per year and working faultlessly for just over a grand. My last car as with others I tend to sell at a little bit of profit after a year or so use. ? One caveat, I never buy German stuff it ain't up to it 

Edited December 3, 2020 by mrsmelly