Infringement of human rights...or not?

[Dr Bob]

Not sure if this has been covered in one of the other CV threads but....what do peep here think of the proposed Apps to work out if you are near a CV confirmed case?

Lots of talk in the press in other countries about introducing Apps that trace where you are and alert you if you are too near confirmed cases. There is an NHS one being developed but it looks like the proposal is for an 'opt-in' system. I would defo opt in as I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives (ie big brother knows where you are at all times - the human rights supporters would be dead against this). One big negative may be seen (not by me) as the CRT know where everyone is as well (not only their botes). The 14 day rule...when it comes back.....? (hence posting it general boating rather than the pub).

I'd like to see such an App being at least an opt out ...if not essential if you want to leave your home, on the assumption that they would discontinue monitoring once this is all over.

What do peeps here think?

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

One big negative may be seen (not by me) as the CRT know where everyone is as well (not only their botes).

 

Will CRT be granted access to the app then? This seems unlikely. 

 

But to be completely accurate, CRT would only know where each boater's phone is. Not necessarily the boater, or their bote.

[churchward]

Such Apps seem to have played a big factor in S.Korea's success in suppressing the spread of the virus. Over all it could be a very good thing particularly in denser population areas.

 

I am not so sure for ongoing monitoring of boat movement. However, data on phone movement is available now it is jus not public. Google and other companies collect this kind of information as we move about with our smartphones..

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by churchward

[MtB]

 

But I'd be in favour of such an app. Forgot to say. 

 

I doubt it will happen though as most people have no sense of perspective, and would not connect it up with better control of the virus. They'd just focus on the 'loss of liberty'.

 

[Tonka]

What annoys me is prisoners. Why are they protected by "human rights", they didn't care about the human rights of their victims. If you commit an offence then you have waived your human rights in my book

[Keeping Up]

According to one description that I read (on the BBC News website, which is usually at least moderately reliable) the App that Microsoft are working together on, won't need to be separately downloaded as it will be a part of the Operating System and would be included in an automatic update. As such you wouldn't be able to turn it on or off except by turning the phone off. It will use Bluetooth to detect its proximity to other people's phones as well as GPS (presumably you won't be able to turn off your Bluetooth or GPS) and then if somebody is diagnosed positive the central database will send a message to all their recent contacts. To me this all sounds positively Orwellian and, much as I like my Smartphone, would quickly encourage me to retrieve my old Nokia dumb-phone from the drawer where it has spent the last few years.

[Rickent]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

But I'd be in favour of such an app. Forgot to say. 

 

I doubt it will happen though as most people have no sense of perspective, and would not connect it up with better control of the virus. They'd just focus on the 'loss of liberty'.

 

I always find this 'loss of liberty' argument strange. 

If you are going about your lawful business then what does it matter.

Movement can already be traced via mobile phones anyway.

 

[mrsmelly]

15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

But I'd be in favour of such an app. Forgot to say. 

 

I doubt it will happen though as most people have no sense of perspective, and would not connect it up with better control of the virus. They'd just focus on the 'loss of liberty'.

 

This is true. I dont " Do " many apps but this one seems good. As for loss of liberty, what bunkum. Nowt to hide, nowt to worry about innitt.

[Machpoint005]

No need to opt out: just switch your phone off, or leave it at home!

So no, it's not an infringement of human rights, unless said rights include the right to carry a mobile phone. As far as I remember, they do not.  

[1st ade]

The difference in peoples attitudes towards "the state" and "an enormous offshore company driven by commercial principles" often staggers me: -

• The government would like to use anonymised data to see how effective isolation is
  • "Fu** of, what i do in my time is my business
• Google uses anonymised data to...
  • "Hey, this is really cool. If I plot a route to my boat from my laptop and then get in the car, my smartphone knows where I'm going, I mean how cool is that?"

[David Schweizer]

I presume I will not be part of this as I do not have a smart phone,  All I have is a bog standard mobile, which sends and receives calls and texts, thats all. and it is hardly ever switched on.

[Slim]

Ask my nephews sister-in-law or any of her family. She's just emerged from Intensive Care where she was on a ventilator for I think 9 days. Not out of the woods but things going in the right direction. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Anyway, one is not surgically attached to a mobile phone.

[matty40s]

Just now, Slim said:

Anyway, one is not surgically attached to a mobile phone.

........yet...

[restlessnomad]

16 minutes ago, Tonka said:

What annoys me is prisoners. Why are they protected by "human rights", they didn't care about the human rights of their victims. If you commit an offence then you have waived your human rights in my book

are you against all human rights being afforded to prisoners, or some of them...? 

btw the rights (your and mine and that of prisoners) are given by the society (enforced by govt) not by individual.

 

[Bee]

15 minutes ago, Tonka said:

What annoys me is prisoners. Why are they protected by "human rights", they didn't care about the human rights of their victims. If you commit an offence then you have waived your human rights in my book

A bit simplistic maybe? Are you talking about C19? What about the staff? those on remand and totally innocent? doctors, nurses, lawyers, maintainance people from Carillon, oh sorry they went bust and how about people like me. in a previous job I delivered flour, yeast and baking supplies to many prisons all over the South. then later on I delivered books to midlands prisons. There's more.  People with mental health issues that should never be in prison, young people who even the gov. agree should not be in adult prisons and how about the prisoners that get banged up for infringements that civilised countries would never jail people for? And how about the very lucky few who against the odds actually do get rehabilitated in prison? Brutalise and infect all of them?

[tree monkey]

25 minutes ago, Rickent said:

I always find this 'loss of liberty' argument strange. 

If you are going about your lawful business then what does it matter.

Movement can already be traced via mobile phones anyway.

 

And I find the "loss of liberty " argument powerful, just because they can doesn't mean they should, to be it becomes the slippery slope argument, could you imagine 20yrs ago the level of monitoring we have now

[Laurie Booth]

28 minutes ago, Tonka said:

What annoys me is prisoners. Why are they protected by "human rights", they didn't care about the human rights of their victims. If you commit an offence then you have waived your human rights in my book

I would think that the majority of uses of this site have committed an offence.

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I presume I will not be part of this as I do not have a smart phone,  All I have is a bog standard mobile, which sends and receives calls and texts, thats all. and it is hardly ever switched on.

Like my good old Nokia 6310i Charge it once a week and it has an external aerial socket so gets a good signal on the boat

[tree monkey]

25 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

This is true. I dont " Do " many apps but this one seems good. As for loss of liberty, what bunkum. Nowt to hide, nowt to worry about innitt.

Nope, never liked that argument at all, I've nothing to hide so why do you want to track me, not you track me obviously

[Bee]

Just now, Laurie.Booth said:

I would think that the majority of uses of this site have committed an offence.

Just two. Oh sorry, I thought you just meant today!

[restlessnomad]

btw I am very uncomfortable with govts collecting data that can identify individuals, if the data is truly anonymous and about collective not individual, I dont really mind.

[tree monkey]

52 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

What do peeps here think?

To answer your question,  it makes me uncomfortable,  maybe with cast iron guarantee that it will be gone when it's over.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, tree monkey said:

Nope, never liked that argument at all, I've nothing to hide so why do you want to track me, not you track me obviously

 

The problem is not what the govt of TODAY do with the data they are gathering about us, its what happens 10 or 20 years in the future when a hard right fascist or hard left communist government grabs power in a coup or heavily manipulated general election. 

 

Now you have a malevolent administration trawling through all the places you went, phone calls you made, websites you browsed, looking for 'thought crimes' you committed in the past, marking you out as a candidate for arrest and 'correction'. 

 

And all because you bought into that "I have nothing to hide so why shouldn't they record everything I do?" argument.

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[magpie patrick]

56 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

...the proposed Apps to work out if you are near a CV confirmed case?

... alert you if you are too near confirmed cases.

How close is that? I'm at no5 and the lady at no6 (whose house I can see across the road) has it, will the blimmin thing beep at me all day long?

 

If it is when I'm within (say) say 6m, and it is known they have  Covid 19, what are they doing out of their house?

 

[Higgs]

33 minutes ago, Rickent said:

I always find this 'loss of liberty' argument strange. 

If you are going about your lawful business then what does it matter.

Movement can already be traced via mobile phones anyway.

 

 

Going about your lawful business? You are happy to carry a plotting app around as a statement of that fact? And, every time you inadvertently go over the speed limit, you receive a notice to pay a fine. I think people who like to offer the authorities such information on a 24hr basis are the same people who'd be less likely to notice the chipping away of democratic rights. You'd have already started, by giving up your right to be assumed innocent. Using your rationale, in reverse, why would you need to be tracked?