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Survey and blacking

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We've seen a boat we like and had an offer accepted, it's being surveyed on Monday. We know it's in need of blacking.

 

The broker (Great Haywood) tells us that the marina (Barton Turns) have a blacking slot available on Tuesday, so the temptation is to get a verbal summary from the surveyor, and if we're happy with that then get the blacking done whilst the boat's out of the water. I'm in two minds about this as we'll be blacking a boat that we don't own, but I don't believe that's it's out of the ordinary to do it this way and it saves us ~£300 getting the boat lifted a second time.

 

What's the prevailing wisdom from the experienced boaters here please?

 

Thanks, Stuart.

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Yes it not unusual to do it this way

 

The only issue is if the surveyor finds a fault that needs rectifying costing (say) £1000.

You say to the owner that your offer is now reduced by £1000 and he doesn't accept and says the price reflects the condition of the boat, "that's the price I'll accept".

The negotiations could go on and you lose the slot for blacking.

 

Give some thought to the various scenarios and get your mind 'straight'.

If it is the boat for you, are you going to lose the boat for £1000 ?

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I know two people who have made a deal with the vendor in these circumstances. The idea is that if you buy the boat you get the benefit of the blacking work and therefore should pay for it, if you don't buy it the vendor gets the benefit so he should pay but of course it has added to the boat's value so he can add it to the sale price. The mechanics of the deal (eg pay half each up front, then settle afterwards) depend on the vendor's willingness to do a deal 

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12 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

if you don't buy it the vendor gets the benefit so he should pay but of course it has added to the boat's value so he can add it to the sale price.

 

Except the next prospective buyer's surveyor is going to grind patches of it off to take hull thickness measurements.

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That's what I did when I bought my boat from a marina based brokers. My survey report was emailed to me by the surveyor within 24 hours. Some negotiation was had with the broker around some issues raised in the survey. It was agreed that they would remedy some of the issues prior to the conclusion of the sale and a price reduction was also agreed to take account of a few other issues that I would sort out post purchase. With that all agreed the boat was blacked before it was hauled back into the water. Basically if you don't have it done while it's already out then you will have to stump up again for the cranage and hardstanding fee when it comes out post purchase.

You might want to ask the broker who would be liable for the cost of the blacking in the event the vendor was to withdraw from the sale at the last moment.  

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34 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Except the next prospective buyer's surveyor is going to grind patches of it off to take hull thickness measurements.

Or....they will use ultrasound and not hack lumps off the boat...

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25 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Or....they will use ultrasound and not hack lumps off the boat...

Ultrasound needs the blacking locally removed to give an accurate result.

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24 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Or....they will use ultrasound and not hack lumps off the boat...

He'll still take "tickets of blacking off if he has the more common (read: "cheaper") meter which can't take a steel measurement whilst taking account of the coating. 

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1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Ultrasound needs the blacking locally removed to give an accurate result.

Only if your surveyor is using an old fashioned meter.  Modern (and very pricey too) ones do not need the blacking removed.  You do end up with blobs of gel all over the boat though.

N

 Beaten to it by a sea hound.😊

 

 

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Didn't know that. Sounds like the modern ones can distinguish between the blacking to steel interface return echo and the steel to air, or insulation interface echo at the far side of the metal further away. At least you hope it is further away! 

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7 hours ago, MichaelG said:

Basically if you don't have it done while it's already out then you will have to stump up again for the cranage and hardstanding fee when it comes out post purchase.

Although of course this isn’t really the best weather to black a boat...

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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Although of course this isn’t really the best weather to black a boat...

The best way in January and February is to pour some warmedbitumen out onto a flat surface, spread it into a number of thin squares of about 2' x 2', leave it an hour, then pick up each individual sheet and apply it to the boat like wallpaper. ;)

 

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19 hours ago, WotEver said:

Although of course this isn’t really the best weather to black a boat...

I would avoid painting next Tuesday like the plauge.

There is high pressure forecast for the whole week which means daytime temps circa 5-6°C and overnight lows below freezing. For 18hrs in the day the temp will be <2°C. The steel temp will be too low. Even in a heated shed, the boat steel is going to be too cold when it is lifted out and the first coat will take ages for the solvent to come out. If the boatyard reckons they can get the steel temp above 10°C then maybe I could be convinced. The other thing that would worry me is that the pressure next week is forecast to be 1050mb. That is very high for the UK. Solvents dont evaporate as fast when pressure is high. It is not something that is normally discussed or understood but back in the 70's when developing low emission polyester resins for boatbuilding, we had to stop testing the emissions of styrene during anticyclones as the styrene came out much slower. The solvents used in todays blacking, ie toluene/ethylbenzene etc will evaporate slower with 1050mb pressue .......not an issue when warm (spring/summer/autumn) but when coupled to 0-5°C temp then it is another worry.

My advice, leave it until the summer unless the yard guarantee it.

  • Greenie 1

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There's always keelblack, that might be better at lower temps, being water based. 

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2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I would avoid painting next Tuesday like the plauge.

There is high pressure forecast for the whole week which means daytime temps circa 5-6°C and overnight lows below freezing. For 18hrs in the day the temp will be <2°C. The steel temp will be too low. Even in a heated shed, the boat steel is going to be too cold when it is lifted out and the first coat will take ages for the solvent to come out. If the boatyard reckons they can get the steel temp above 10°C then maybe I could be convinced. The other thing that would worry me is that the pressure next week is forecast to be 1050mb. That is very high for the UK. Solvents dont evaporate as fast when pressure is high. It is not something that is normally discussed or understood but back in the 70's when developing low emission polyester resins for boatbuilding, we had to stop testing the emissions of styrene during anticyclones as the styrene came out much slower. The solvents used in todays blacking, ie toluene/ethylbenzene etc will evaporate slower with 1050mb pressue .......not an issue when warm (spring/summer/autumn) but when coupled to 0-5°C temp then it is another worry.

My advice, leave it until the summer unless the yard guarantee it.

I didn't know this, thanks a lot.

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8 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

There's always keelblack, that might be better at lower temps, being water based. 

If the steel temp is down near the dew point then nowt is going to work well. Everything then is a compromise.

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2 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

There's always keelblack, that might be better at lower temps, being water based. 

Absolutely not, Keelblack used outside of the Summer temperatures is prone to failure.

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1 hour ago, matty40s said:

Absolutely not, Keelblack used outside of the Summer temperatures is prone to failure.

I fear there may be half a dozen superfluous words in the middle of that sentence...

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Rusting is a slow process, it might need blacking now but its not going to be significantly worse in 4 or 5 months time so don't be rushed. The £300 saved won't really be £300 saved if its a bad job. If you buy the boat then take your time, find out which yards do a good job and get to know the boat, then get the work done under your control at your pace when its more convenient.

Its a bit of a worrying co-incidence that there is a blacking slot available the very day after your survey 😀   Maybe its because nobody wants to black their boat in January.

 

..................Dave

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2 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I fear there may be half a dozen superfluous words in the middle of that sentence...

Maybe more than 6 ...

4 hours ago, matty40s said:

Absolute [...] Keelblack [...] failure.

 

Edited by TheBiscuits

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2 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I fear there may be half a dozen superfluous words in the middle of that sentence...

I couldn't say any more for fear of litigation in this day and age , however much I know exactly which 6 words to edit.

Peterboat( he of 10000 lithium batteries and 3 fields of solar), probably managed to get a laser beam to make sure his Keelblack was welded to his boat one hot August day.

I am glad they have at least one satisfied customer.

I have yet to find one boater come to us and ask for the product to be put back on again.

Edited by matty40s

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12 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I fear there may be half a dozen superfluous words in the middle of that sentence...

Fear not, it's worked for me a few times.

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11 hours ago, matty40s said:

I couldn't say any more for fear of litigation in this day and age , however much I know exactly which 6 words to edit.

Peterboat( he of 10000 lithium batteries and 3 fields of solar), probably managed to get a laser beam to make sure his Keelblack was welded to his boat one hot August day.

I am glad they have at least one satisfied customer.

I have yet to find one boater come to us and ask for the product to be put back on again.

I've never used keelblack so can't comment on how good or bad it is.

However, years ago the manufacturers of blacking coatings arrived at the 'best' formulation using strong hydrocarbon solvents,as they did for most other industrial coatings. The strong solvents allowed best application and final coating performance. They were also expensive. Water was much cheaper but no one used water as a solvent despite it being very cheap. It just didn't work as well.

Move on 50 years and now we have all sorts of safety concerns over organic solvents so the powers that be try to phase them out and replace them with water based systems. Let's face it, water is never going to be as good. The solvents we use are fine except that they evaporate into the environment and so may be a fire hazard in confined spaces. Cows do more damage for global warming.

I will always chose a solvent system over water based.

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