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Correct. All those people who fought the establishment to keep the canals open in the 1960 and have since restored disused canals, did so so that they could be used as a leisure amenity. Not so people could clog them up with cheap accommodation.

What your mostly reasonable post fails to address is the real reason why people like me resent people like you, even though I’m sure you are a nice person etc. We are leisure boaters, although we live on the boat for several months a year. We like to use the system as a means of transport, which after all is what it was designed for. (It was not designed as provision of accommodation). We like travel around to new and interesting places. When arriving at these places we obviously need to moor for the night and we can always do this because boats on the system tend not to be too concentrated in any one area. The key point being that the available space is shared equitably by anyone wanting to use it. It is after all public space. But this breaks down in London where we would really struggle to arrive of a late afternoon and find somewhere to moor. This being because a small proportion of boat owners have decided to effectively annex a large area in and around London for their exclusive use. They do not spread themselves around a large area of the system as we do. They never leave and thus visitors are excluded, something which doesn’t happen anywhere else in the country. So I resent the fact that people such as yourself have taken possession of a public space and thereby exclude other people from having a fair share of using it. Not helped by a feeling that in the main, people are only doing this in order to have cheap accommodation near the city, as opposed to any love for boating. Boating being, by my definition, cruising in a boat, not just living statically in a floating house.

Er. Should we be discussing this sort of thing on a forum open for the whole world to see? None of this is rocket science, but even so.

you are of course spot on. .............. NOT !! if folks choose to spend on non-essential luxuries and fail to invest in their own future, they should not expect the rest of the community to tolerate their lifestyle habits if those amount to free-loading and sponging at our expense. Fact of life. When I was brought up they would have been described as spoilt brats. If you want to moor your boat in London then pay for a mooring. the OP says he can afford to buy a boat but he can't afford a mooring. That's like saying I can afford to build a house but I can't afford to buy a building plot. Sorry, you can't (or shouldn't) have one without the other.

What a nasty, smug, I'm all right Jack posting.

I have sympathy with the views expressed by Nick, but am concerned that effectively it means we're putting our retirement hobby above peoples life. Rog

Boo who, The Bargee Travellers don't like the cold hard facts of life, There is no such as a free lunch or a handout, someone always has to pay. There is no magic money tree, even if the NBTA think there is. C&RT is short of cash and things will get much worse in 2022 when the grant money ends. Yet all we ever hear from the Bargee Travellers is We want!, We want! We want!. Yet they don't want to pay nothing towards the extra cost. Only a few weeks ago they were demanding that their members with kids in school should be allowed to be moored in the same place (Free) without being forced to move every two weeks in term time. The local market rate for a mooring is over £15000 a year (Battlebridge Basin) If all the Bargee Travellers on the Regents Canal paid, C&RT would have an extra 7.2 million in funds each year. . It been claimed that they move around, yet most don't. I seen the same group of boats from friend's window that have been moored in the same place for months. As for the claim that the NBTA are 'Guardians of Tow-path', who are they fooling other then themselves. That is like the Travellers on the road claiming to be 'Guardians of Pavement, Car Park, School Field or Park' when told to move-on by the Police and the Courts . As for the claim that it is imposable for the 20-30 years get a foot on the ladder. This wrong again, the real reason is simple. They can not manage money to save the deposit for a mortgage, it is all to often to much month at the end of the money. It is all down to spending on the latest must have. Be it the latest iPhone, Ipad, 60” screen TV, the full Sky package, fashion and a lot of other pricey things. The current iphone XS even with the trade in price is over £750, who the sort of fool who pays this sort of price for a phone and this every time a new model comes out, which is about every 18 months. Yet I have never paid more then £40 for a phone and then I only replace if damaged or the battery is worn-out. The same with computers, Yet I only upgrade when required, I'm still using the same ATX case I brought in 92, just replacing bits when needed. The LCD screen is 20 years still does the Job, which is a good thing as finding a replacement 17” might prove to be a bit hard. Like most people of my age on this forum, we were taught the value of money and the need for money management at school or by our parents, the importance of saving for things rather then use credit. It's hardly news that people spend more freely with credit cards than when they're using cash. We all seen the 20 something with the wallet full of cards, Using a credit card instead of cash is called "payment decoupling", a fancy term for the fact that credit cards mean you get to enjoy your new iPhone, weeks or months before actual paying for it, add a fascinating wrinkle: spending actual cash feels uniquely painful even when decoupling's not an issue. When experimental subjects were given free cash and invited to spend some of it, they do so more conservatively than when given credit vouchers – even when they're told they'll get their change in cash either way. A single credit card does have it's uses. Either as a backup or for a purchase of £100 for section 75 protection and then only if you can pay the full amount that month. f you normally put all of your purchases on your credit card, and then you don’t pay off your credit cards in full every month, because of added interest charges you are probably paying at least 50% more for everything you buy. If you are relying on your credit cards to afford your lifestyle, your living beyond your means and you know where that will end. It is completely possible for a 20-30 year old to not only save a 20% deposit and get a mortgage. And I don't mean the North East either, My own daughter (28) and son-in law brought their first two bedroom house two years ago in Dorset, only a few miles from my own place in the Purbeck's. Dorset is not a cheap place to buy a house, and we have the most expensive street in the South West to buy a house. Yet to save the 20% deposit took only eight years and they did not live like hermits, Not that it possible to do that with two girls, simple by careful money management and using a budget and sticking to it. Not having student loans to pay helped as well, they both did apprenticeships which paid for their degrees. Yet they were able to put aside in a ISA account £400 month. Spending pattern also help when getting a mortgage, things like using overdrafts often or having pay day loans do put a lender off. Yet you do need some credit history and that is where that one credit card is used to build up a good credit history. People who don’t plan for their future seem to move from “crisis” to “crisis.” As for living in London, I have done between 1989 and 90 where I was moored at High-Line at Northolt on the Grand Union Paddington Arm before moving out to Langley on the Slough Arm when a mooring became available there. They was a fair number of boats moving up and down the Paddington Arm back then, mostly at the weekend. Before that on a mooring near Manchester between 86 and 88 while at UMIST. No council tax back then just the CC. Moving the boat from Manchester down to London in the Christmas Break to some planning and effort. . It also worked out cheaper as well to stay on the boat in the week. And were able to save the deposit quicker. Being able to buy the house in 94. We could have moved up to Cambridgeshire when I was offer the Job in Cambridge. Yet the system work it just added an extra hour on the Friday and Monday for travel back and from Dorset. But then you will note that I always had a paid mooring and not just left the boat on the towpath. As for the twit who thinks it Ok to make threats against person and property, How would you like a visit from one of my friends to slap the darby's on you and take you up the steps in front of the Beak, as he saw what you wrote. The last one who tried was caught 'flagrante delicto' on a Friday while committing damage namely spray painting offensive language on the side of my boat causing £3000 worth of damage. She woke my neighbour who tried to catch her when she kick him between legs, she fled the area over the weekend. She is still wanted by the Police to face charges. This was because a member of the Waterman's Club had stuck a notice on her boat for leaving it chained to the in the middle of the moorings in West Park where she had left the boat throughout July and August. She believed it it was me who had done, As we had words about her conduct in front of my grand daughters. One outcome was that the marina is now covered in flood lighting and CCTV, before it was only the front gate and workshops. As for the woman who was vulgar in their post , This is the sign of a low “IQ“, a result of a lack of education. Which is why you have a low skill-set and are poorly paid.

Closure - bill and the gang at Ashton Packet got me sorted in under 24h. Little short of a miracle with 68 year old engine! Thanks.

Myself and two other guys built our first steel narrowboat. 45 ft from a set of available plans. The local steel stockholder did all the bends for us [gunnels]. It took the three of us 4 years and one week. Easter is a movable feast. We worked every Sunday and 2 evenings a week, it was hard graft but we enjoyed every minute of it. Go for the biggest shell you can fit in the build space, because all the work is in the stem and stern. the bit in the middle is much easier. When completed the insurance value was £42,000 the actual cost to us was £12,659, less our hours worked. We did it for love not profit. We rebuilt an engine for it but had to purchase a new gear box and propeller. We bought the correct stainless steel and turned our own prop-shaft. When the shell was completed we filled it water to check it did not leak. It did, about an egg cup full over four days. Its a huge undertaking, do not underestimate that but when you sail away for the first time its a huge satisfactory feeling that last as long as you own it. If you need any help I can give only too happy to help.

Well done in keeping a sense of humour! I reckond London is busy and recognise the problems raised on here, I just choose not to blame other boaters for the situation. If I'm looking to apportion blame then it's towards those who have been instrumental in creating our broken society, with breathtaking inequality and and completely broken housing market.

The answer to this is quite simple, bring in more 24 hour visitor moorings around London. Along the Regent's pretty much all the designated visitor moorings are 14 days, which is utterly pointless since that the default maximum stay on any towpath mooring. There's a 24 hour mooring in Limehouse and a 4 hour(????) mooring in Camden. Apart from that everything is 14 days.

'Tis a curious thing. My parents on getting married could not afford a house so they lived in caravans rather than boats. Odd, given my fathers side were a very accomplished boat building family. I on the other hand was in the same position but chose boats to live on instead of a house. Always had moorings though. So my start in boating was born of poverty/inability to get a house but I had an innate interest in boats and boating right from being a toddler. I LURVED "Tales of the Riverbank" on telly as a small child mainly for the bits when they went out on the river on their little electric boat. Then later to be allowed to take one of great Uncle Ern's hire punts out on the river when we visited. So I can see both sides. I'm sure some people have a lifelong interest in canals and boating which arose initially from buying one as a home out of poverty. Equally I can see plenty of people about who have no interest in and care nothing about boats and canals despite living on one. Just musing really....

No, I am putting everyone’s requirements equally. We should all have equal access to the space. Just as we do in city parks. The corollary to your point is that we should allow people to put caravans in london’s parks because, it seems according to you, having somewhere to live cheaply in London is more important than amenity /leisure activity. Since society wouldn’t tolerate that, I’m not clear why it is tolerated on london’s canals. And anyway, a lot of boaters wishing to visit central London are not retired. I certainly wasn’t the last time I visited London by boat (which was about 15 years ago).

Ah, good point. Among my many Get Rich Quick schemes one was becoming a tarpaulin salesman on the K&A.

Boat wise, London is busy, very busy, but the picture being painted on this thread is very warped. I live on a 40ft nb. I do not like double mooring as I have a grumpy dog who barks at the slightest noise and refuses to cross another boat to get to the bank so, I will sometimes have to miss certain areas of central London if I don't wish to double moor. Having said that, if London was not so tightly packed with boats then boats would, I am sure, be much less secure than they are even now, and we have a number of security issues as I said in my earlier post. So, in busy areas, it can be beneficial to have a neighbour who will be looking out for your boat. Facilities are lacking, while the argument from CaRT and some boaters is that there are more facilities here than anywhere else in the country, these facilities are serving many many more people and so, they break down, get blocked etc. The notion that there are always queues at water points is not true, yes, in busy areas that will often be the case on a weekend but it really doesn't take long to water up and as boaters we go on boat time. There are people who abuse the facilities, just as there are people who do that in every other walk of life, I never understand why toilets in pubs, restaurants etc still have to have a sign telling people not to put wetwipes down but we hey, that's life, someone will always come along and try and stuff a nappy down the elsan at some point, we deal with it and move on. There are no recycling bins provided by the canal and river trust between Victoria park on the regents and, well actually they are the only ones I can picture east of Little venice which is frankly unacceptable from a charity which has just launched a campaign to get everyone to collect litter, where will that go? In local authority bins and they will foot the bill. So while the Canal and river trust keep exclaiming that they cannot keep up with demand, they keep on issuing licences and taking licence payments, selling land to developers, I could go on. Having said all that, they have a very difficult task on their hands, one I am really not sure the organisation has the ability to cope with but time will tell. This description of us all being continuous moorers? Well yes, we do moor after moving, that is a given but we certainly do move, otherwise we wouldn't have our licences renewed would we. The idea that we all have a secret moving schedules and space swap is paranoia and conspiracy theory and simply not true. If you take a look at the London boating facebook groups for example, anyone who asks to space swap is swiftly told off. I am sure there are a few boats which do this, just as there are a few boats which don't move as often or far but it really isn't many. Living on a boat as a cc-er, is a completely different lifestyle to having a holiday boat you leave in a marina and only take out when the sun shines but different doesn't mean bad. We have a wonderful community of knowledgeable, hardy, kind, skilled enthusiastic boaters and we will defend ourselves when attacked with such vitriol as that seen above. We make the canals safer by maintaining a presence there, we collect litter, we clear up oil spills from industry and help resolve structural issues, we act as liaison between authorities and hokld them to account when the CRT, Environment agency, local councils and Thames water for example all try to pass the buck and claim responsibility isn't theirs , we report injured animals we defend and assist victims of crime on the canals in London and we are the victims of crime, continuously, we have had to battle with an underfunded police force as our community were being mugged at knife point, women punched in the face while cycling so a thief could take their bike, homes invaded burgled, we have learned that their is safety in numbers and community and without us, (just last night my friend called me from their boat as someone drugged up to the eyeballs had climbed on their boat and tried to get in through the door, I came out with th dog and scared them off but my friend was terrified )that single, beautifully polished boat that pops into London for a few days tourism would be smashed and robbed because there would be no one around acting as presence and detterant. I have no doubt that things will change, the IWA hate us and lobby CRT to get rid of us but we will fight to keep our community. Yes there will always be people who dont play by the rules but next time you walk past a boat which looks a bit shabby and hasn't moved for a while, instead of tutting and raging online, think for a moment that person may, for example be unwell, physically or mentally, unable to access health services consistently because of their lifestyle, which may or may not have been their first choice, and be receiving threatening letters from CRT, it happens, so don't be too quick to judge a situation you know nothing about. London is a busy city with a huge population all on a wide specturm of living conditions and with different lives and needs, the canals in London are no different.

And the second law is that being on a widebeam excuses you from ever having to close lock gates behind you.

When I bought mine they were relatively new to the UK. The manual said you could wash them in the dishwasher, but when I did so all the colour disappeared. Apparently American/Canadian dishwashers don't use salt unless you add it on a per-time basis but of course UK ones have reservoir so salt is always added. Tilley replaced it with no problems, thanking me for discovering that the UK version of the manual needed re-writing. A few years later two of the brass eyelets fell out; Tilley replaced it with no problems. Then several years later the dog chewed the brim and again Tilley replaced it with no problems. I reckon I got good value from my purchase 30 years ago, especially as in every case they returned the old hat with the new one and I am still using them all (even the one with half the brim missing)

Au contraire. When CRT use it, it seems to stay up for decades...

Typical NBTA member....?

Iphones and lattes are not the reason the younger generation cannot afford homes...as satisfying as that would be to the dailymail brigade! It's the price of houses relative to the average wage! https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/5590859/one-in-four-middle-earners-own-home-ifs-report/ Put a link to an article in the sun *shudder* rather than the guardian to avoid accusations of biase ?

Unless there is some cryptic meaning to your post which I don’t understand, you are saying that you are concerned that we are putting a retirement hobby above people lives. I think we also established that it is not in fact a retirement hobby, just a hobby or leisure activity. Since you are concerned about it I presume you mean we shouldn’t be doing it. Am I wrong? And yet as I demonstrated, in all other walks of life leisure activities are put above people’s lives, if by people’s lives one means having a place to live. This is why we have a planning system, green belt, national parks, city parks etc with no possibility to build houses on them or legally put mobile housing. I don’t understand why you think the canals should be different?

Private landlords and minimum wage employers being subsidised by the council tax payer.

It is also because a narrow boat moored inconsiderately is less of an obstruction and less memorable than a widebeam moored equally inconsiderately.

I've done something similar to this for a couple of friends boats, but did the CAD design myself and got a local company to engrave and cut the panel for a reasonable price. If you can design something and make a drawing, then most cities will have one, or more places that can make one. Here is one of my designs below. One day I'll do one for my own boat! Jen

But you must agree she is a perfectly balanced individual - A chip on each shoulder !!

Perhaps you need to remove the plank off your shoulder!

Well there we have it, this has nothing to do with boating, it has everything to do with your politics. Why are you talking about mobile phones and student debt? I don't think this needs much response, you have set your nonsensical justification for your opinion in a perfect light for all to see and undone yourself. You need no help from anyone else to show how bigoted your opinions are.

That is so old school. Rule number one before touching the controls is to whip the camera phone out.

What a bunch of nasty, intolerant, judgemental old men inhabit this forum nowadays. I know who's full of bovine droppings and who's trying desperately to be reasonable. As for the "shame on you" comment coming from someone who happily admits to wanting to cleanse the system of non shiney boats the hypocrisy beggars belief. Time to stop looking at this thread in the futile hope for reasonableness (though I do thank Mr Athy for questioning the implication that London would be a sea of tranquility were it not for the nasty, noisy, smelly boaters)

If you have a widebeam it the the only place you are allowed to moor. Other than bang opposite any other width restriction you can find. You'll notice this as you get around more.

,

This is an interesting point. I often wonder what 'side' in this whole debate working boatmen would have taken and the canal proprietors? But there really is room for everyone. And if the canals are going to continue to get government money they must be demonstrated to be well used, busy and to have as broad an appeal to as wide a cross section of society as possible! I want to still be cruising them in 30/40 years time!!

But if the red price is 80p then your calulations for fuel duty are wrong, since they would already be paying full duty for 60% of the fuel.

I’ll need to get a map and highlight places she will go... she’s 2 feet draught according to the specs Yep my intentions are to spend my days off on the Trent doing regular short learning trips to get experience and confidence I have no illusions of being good at it from day one that’s for sure lol

I recommend you stop drinking the Brasso.

It was 20 years ago when Brian was still on the counter, said he was to old to crawl around boats. I think his daughter took it over. so price, well it probably wouldn't buy 2 pints today, even up north

Of course there was a time when most folk started out with a small boat a bit like when I was young most blokes had a motorbike or scooter before they got a car. Nowadays everyone seems to start at the top so they never experience the advantages of a little boat. Boats are never big enough. Over the years I've been boating and talking to boat owners it seems to me that every boat is about five feet too short.

I built my own 55' tug style. Did it to my own plans and worked mainly at weekends and in fair weather. I did find it took longer than I originally estimated but then I did start a little late in life. If I could turn back the clock I'd probably have done things differently, would likely have bought a sound boat that needed restoration and gone that way. Immensely satisfying but don't underestimate the amount of work. The only other thing I'd say, as the majority of work is in the bow and stern, do think carefully about the wisdom of building a "short" boat. A mid build photo...

We timed it perfectly when we went - completely by chance, Black Dog Molly were having a dance out there just as we turned up. Little BobBiscuits got a command performance of a hurdygurdy solo which utterly fascinated him, and got to wear a flowery hat and bash some sticks. It was very exciting for a one year old!

It's to match the tarpaulins on the boat. Didn't you know?

Why do people on boats outside London spend so much time getting upset about boats inside London?

Big cities are the future, like it or not...It would be better for the UK if it had a genuine second city to rival London. But cities are better! They are greener as people use more public transport, live in apartments which are greener than individual houses to heat etc...And people are happier in cities too (believe it or not) as they tend to feel more socially connected and have access to more services etc. This is backed up by scientific studies (and recently a whole national geographic special issue)...before someone calls this more bovine droppings?

Cough.....scuse me, greeny. Its the selfish old farts that force the youngsters into this situation in the first place. The only way kids(up to 35/40)have of having a place of their own without paying extortionate rents, is to have a boat and save up a deposit for somewhere. People who work in Costa, Pret a manger, and all the other food outlets that serve Londoners do not earn enough to live in London or buy an annual rail pass, living outside London. So until someone grabs the problem by the horns, it will only get worse, and the inept ruling classes of this country are hardly able to button their own shirts, never mind sort out social issues that might downgrade their Cayman Island retirement funds.

Looking at the document in Ditchcrawler's link quoted in the opening post, I see it says it's a consultation document about how to implement the CJEU judgment, with a deadline for comments of 9th September. HMRC go on to say: After the consultation: A summary of responses will be published after this consultation concludes. This consultation will inform when the changes will be brought into effect in legislation and whether any adjustment period is needed. So HMRC can't simply do it, it requires legislation. Given that Boris Johnson is near certain to become PM next week and has declared his intention to leave the EU by 31st October, and bearing in mind that Parliament takes a break for the party conference season and will be rather preoccupied with Brexit when it reconvenes, what are the chances of any legislation on red diesel getting passed by 31st October? I'm no expert on Parliamentary procedure, but my gut feeling is virtually zero! Therefore, unless the Remainers find a way to block Boris, and let's not clutter this topic up by debating whether they should, we'll arrive at 1st November out of the EU and with the law on red diesel unchanged. In which case I suppose HMRC will no longer be obliged to implement the CJEU judgment, the government will have more pressing matters to think about, and it's most unlikely to go ahead?

Nice to see you are trying to fiddle the taxman in public! If they do indeed mandate we all have to use white diesel, there will be an implementation date after which it will be a criminal offence to have red diesel in your fuel system - tanks/filters etc, so what do you intend to do with the remaining 1500 litres of stale red diesel at that point?

Hi Meelius and welcome to the forum, It's funny you should ask that, we've had a couple of people ask that same question of late. Renting a boat can be fraught with dangers for both you as a reenter and for the people renting you their boat so it's a subject that when discussed on here can often leave the original poster feeling disappointed. However there have also been a few more positive points of late and there are now a couple of genuine hire companies who will consider longer term hires - I'll just have a rummage about and find you the info you need and links to other threads you may find interesting. Back in a mo.... Rose Narrowboats - https://rose-narrowboats.co.uk Floating Holidays - https://www.floating-holidays.co.uk Escape the Rat Race - https://www.etrr.co.uk

At best that’s very selective, at worst it’s simply guilty of the same thing of which it accuses peterboat. The GUCCo had aspirations for a network of wider canals. In addition to the widening of the Birmingham line they had powers to do similar on the Leicester line and designs on the north Oxford and Coventry. Do you think if they had succeeded in their long term vision and eradicated the remaining narrow locks on their principal trading routes that they had no intention of ever using broader beamed boats? As for the particular example here, we are discussing the Warwick & Napton canal. One that was substantially rebuilt in the 1930s; locks, bridges and wash walls for the majority of the canal. In general it’s a channel that as constructed is plenty big enough to pass two 12’ 6” boats. With another one moored it would be problematic in places but that’s also the case with 7’ beam boats in many locations on narrow canals. It so happens that the wash walls from the 1930s rebuild have dredging dimensions cast into them. Those dimensions are significantly greater than the current published maximum draft or dredging requirements. The issue about suitability is more about maintenance standards than it is about the construction of the canal. Similarly from Berkhamsted to Braunston - which is where I suspect you were really referencing above - the channel is constructed to the same specification as from Brentford to Braunston. Yet south of Berkhamsted wide beam boats operated seemingly successfully but they didn’t north of Berkhamsted. That suggests to me that “success” was at least partly measured in economic terms as much as operational terms. Accordingly since at least sometime in the BWB era the channel north of Berkhamsted has been maintained to lesser dredging dimensions, thus giving some credence to the notion that it’s only a wide beam canal south of Berkhamsted. Even if that were an official position it wouldn’t be due to an entirely sacrosanct physical constraint. Ultimately though why should history dictate modern usage? The GUCCCo operated for 15 years; the BWB carrying fleet for another consecutive 15 years. Yet there has now been a 50 year long period of leisure usage that seemingly has to be beholden to the practices of those earlier companies. In this instance we have one type of boater spitting bile at another type of boater. Ironically that other type of boater appears to be someone trying to make a journey that is very much “bona fide for navigation” and with rigorous adherence to the conditions imposed by the navigation authority. Usually things the forum collectively insists others must do. We should be holding CRT to account to maintain canals suitable for usage as per their legal requirements for all boaters who boat in a reciprocal manner and also encourage CRT to undertake suitable maintenance to make passage of all such vessels easier for all users. So by all means complain about wide beams on the north Oxford or in central Birmingham but not on the Birmingham line of the GU. It’s only possible they can get there because of a historical act by the (beloved by some) GUCCo. So if you don’t like it, in a word, that’s “tough”. JP

Upon what evidence do you believe it? The linked web site says nothing about microplastics, which AFAIK come from the synthetic clothes, not the detergents.