Serious Incident - Shropshire Union Nr Chester 11/03/2015

[howardang]

 

Sorry I am confused here. What do you mean by a "Helmsmans license" please?

 

I have various "Certificates of Competence" from the RYA including my "Inland Helmsman's" certificate ........

An Inland Waters Helmsman certificate isn't a Certificate of Competence - its effectively a certificate of attendance.

 

Howard

[Stilllearning]

It wouldn't surprise me at all. When I was 17 I got 10 points and a fine for sitting in my car on my parents driveway while wasted. My friend and I had popped out for a cigarette and it started to rain so we sat in the car. I had the keys in the ignition so we could have the radio on.

That is just the sort of scenario that worries me.

Mind you, being on the drive, how on earth did they do you?

[MHS]

That is just the sort of scenario that worries me.

Mind you, being on the drive, how on earth did they do you?

You can still be done for drink drive on private land, as you may then of course decide to join the public road.

 

Grossly unfair in certain circumstance.

[Delta9]

That is just the sort of scenario that worries me.

Mind you, being on the drive, how on earth did they do you?

Apparently, if there was gate I would have been fine. As the driveway was open to the road the same rules as the road apply, the same reason you can't drink drive legally in a supermarket car park.

[dor]

Apparently, if there was gate I would have been fine. As the driveway was open to the road the same rules as the road apply, the same reason you can't drink drive legally in a supermarket car park.

 

It does make you wonder what would happen if you were at home and had had a few glasses of wine. You then went out to the car sitting on the drive to get something from it just as the police drove by...

 

I might get away with it with my car as the key only has to be in my pocket for the car to recognise it and let me in - I could say the car was unlocked and I wasn't using a key. Maybe.

[MHS]

Apparently, if there was gate I would have been fine. As the driveway was open to the road the same rules as the road apply, the same reason you can't drink drive legally in a supermarket car park.

Can drunks not open gates?

[waterdog]

Yup, you can get done even on private land if there is public access and you just have to be "in charge of the vehicle"

My kids used to get the right hump when I sent them out to the car to get my jacket or a cd because I'd had a drink, its just not worth the risk.

 

Story from a guy on a course who had been banned for drink driving.......

 

He alleged that his girlfriend was driving as he was drunk, an argument developed on the way home and got more heated as they parked up. A neighbour heard the commotion and called the police who arrived to find him in the driving seat but he claimed he had only sat in it after they stopped and didn't even have the keys.

To prove his point he pressed the start button on the car and it roared into life because the girlfriend was close to the car with the keys in her handbag,

 

ooops - automatic drunk in charge - 12 month ban

[The Pipe]

It gets up my goat in this country you can get done for having the keys with you even if you have no intent to drive.

I’ve had a different attitude in Germany coming from the Oktober Fest staggering to my car taking my jacket out as it was pouring with rain and start walking only to have a police car stop and tell me to get in and they will take me home. The last comment from them was pick my car up in the afternoon! (they were watching the car park as they even knew my name which they would find out by checking the registration).

In Germany you will lose your driving license and any other licenses you have for be drunk on a bike.

[bargemast]

But you said in the same sentence

 

"and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating"

 

Which would seem to imply it didn't really teach you much .

But you said in the same sentence

 

"and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating"

 

Which would seem to imply it didn't really teach you much .

 

Could it be that because Krooko doesn't drink any alcohol while boating, he can still objectively judge that he's still not very good in handling his boat ?

 

Probably after a couple of glasses his judgement about his boathandling may have changed, and he may then have the (wrong) idea that he's very good at it.

 

So many people know exactly how much they can safely drink, and still be able to drive their car, or boat without any danger.

 

At least that's what they think, and more often than not they're lucky enough to get away with it.

 

For many boaters it's probably too hard to wait until they're safely tied up before they start drinking.

 

Peter.

[matty40s]

Krooko has been on a course, probably similar to those ran by Willow Wren where new boaters can go and spend a day or weekend learning the ropes. Quite often, there are several people on these training courses on the same boat.

It is a good start to narrowboating, I am not sure the Certificate means much other than to the person completing the day.

[junior]

I could tell everybody about the time I 'rammed' (T-boned) another boater at full speed...

 

 

 

 

 

 

*no damage was done and i wasn't actually steering my boat

[tillergirl]

The boat is moored in its usual place lady on board. Boat is looking a little scratched and front button is hanging off.

[bargemast]

I could tell everybody about the time I 'rammed' (T-boned) another boater at full speed...

*no damage was done and i wasn't actually steering my boat

That sounds rather strange, did this happen in your dreams during one of your night shifts ?

 

Peter.

Edited March 20, 2015 by bargemast

[Rufford]

I could tell everybody about the time I 'rammed' (T-boned) another boater at full speed...

*no damage was done and i wasn't actually steering my boat

Im sure we all have less than ideal boat handling moments, be it poor judgement, an expected weir, sudden crosswinds, running aground and losing all steering etc.

 

However things on the whole generally work out.

 

Being unable to control a boat and boating literally blind drunk doesnt sound like a good way of preparing for such incidents posted above.

 

But where do we stop? Do we enforce tickover speed by limitors and ban boating at night too? It is down to personal responsibility and is not the responsibility of the state to prevent such things, sadly the state just has to tidy up the mess and aftermath.

 

ps. I have not personaly caused any boats to sink nor have any of my boats sank, thats about my only boating qualification, Im still learning the rest.

[RLWP]

I have not personally caused any boats to sink nor have any of my boats sank

 

I may adopt that as a signature, I'm not sure most boaters could admit to anything more

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

That sounds rather strange, did this happen in your dreams during one of your night shifts ?

Peter.

No, although it has to be said it was only at full speed until about 5 seconds before impact - then it was full speed reverse. Just bounced off though, since he hit a proper boat. Edited March 20, 2015 by nicknorman

[NickF]

I could tell everybody about the time I 'rammed' (T-boned) another boater at full speed...

 

 

 

 

 

 

*no damage was done and i wasn't actually steering my boat

I have found that steering the boat helps to reduce such incidents, may be that is where you went wrong!

[DaveC]

 

If alcohol is such a demon and such a problem, surely we should ban it? Also, if you are on such a personal crusade (it is you who owns a pub isnt it?) why do you own a pub?

 

 

 

IMO the vast majority of pub landlords are not particularly interested in selling alcohol (but I do know that some are proud of the beer that they keep) but their main interest is selling grossly over priced food!

 

Dave

[forsberg]

In Sweden we have had the open seas laws applied for inland waters also for as long as I can remeber.

Which are pretty tothless as you can be drunk as a skunk as long as you do not commit an offence and have more then 100mg.

Since 2010 boats capable of exceeding 15 knots or greater then 10 meters in length you will be charged at 20mg no offence needed.

 

Funnily enough almost the only people complaining about this is our Actor elite.

( ther's very few narrowboats in sweden and boats above 12 m need a Ofshore helmsman licence, so people tend to keep below 12m)

[stickleback]

Apparently, if there was gate I would have been fine. As the driveway was open to the road the same rules as the road apply, the same reason you can't drink drive legally in a supermarket car park.

So is the local authority responsible for maintaining an ungated drive??

[bargemast]

No, although it has to be said it was only at full speed until about 5 seconds before impact - then it was full speed reverse. Just bounced off though, since he hit a proper boat.

Thanks for your explanation Nick, as I was very surprised to read that a T-bone crash at full speed didn't do any damage, as even the strongest built boats are not build to resist to side impacts, and of course even less at full speed side impact crashes.

 

I'm glad to read that (I suppose) your boat survived.

 

Peter.

[Emerald Fox]

For Finland the alcohol limit on water - the sea coast and lakes (there is a vast system) - is the same for the roads. 'One beer' is OK but that's it. The Coastguard and Police have stopped us in our 5m-long open fibreglass boat and breathalysed us a few times. Some boats go at tremendous rocket-like speeds and there have been deaths with alcohol as part of the equation.

The buses I drive have alco-locks on them; it would be really embarrassing having to phone your boss at 7am to tell him the bus won't start because of the alco-lock. Instant dismissal.

Conscientious narrow/wide-boat steerers could have alco-locks fitted to their vessel?

By the way, there's a thought - if you like boating, how about a holiday on Finland's lakes?

Here's a nice link, someone else's blog. We have done the Viitasaari - Petäjävesi stretch.

(our local one-day run is Kokkola-Pietarsaari through the inland sea, and Rahja archipelago is our local playground with 2 cabins for anyone to use):

 

http://veneilya.blogspot.fi/2011/06/11-1262011-jyvaskyla-viitasaari.html

 

http://www.luontoon.fi/venekaripaivatupa

 

http://www.luontoon.fi/koivukariautiotupa

[Galeomma]

To get back to the original subject, I'm surprised no one has flagged up that if she (the ramming speed) captain of the boat did not have a court approved alcohol test of some sort - blood, urine, calibrated breath test machine, - she cannot be prosecuted as being drunk in charge of anything.

 

Also, 'she was going at 10 mph' from a member of the public, even multiple members of the public will carry no weight in a court.

 

Criminal damage? I don't know what the definition of criminal is but the police weren't interested when my car got smashed when parked even though I had CCTV of the incident including the perpetrators reg number so why would they be that bothered about a boating bump where no one got hurt.

 

What's the betting it ends up as an insurance argument and her getting nothing harder than a fixed penalty fine for being naughty in a public place.

 

I'm not saying she wasn't guilty of all above, I'm saying what any court will say.

[Domino_2]

 

What's the betting it ends up as an insurance argument and her getting nothing harder than a fixed penalty fine for being naughty in a public place.

 

I've just checked my own boat insurance details, and it states that they cover our vessal for (among other things), acts of accidental damage, acts of vandalism and acts of deliberate dame (not caused by you).

 

For those poor soles whose boats have been damaged, should (if they are insured) should be able to claim off their own insurance companies.

 

Having worked in the insurance industry (albeit motor insurance), I would expect that the damaged boats insurance company will attempt to get reimburements from the drunkan lady and her insurance company (presuming she was insured, which given her attitude to the rules of the waterways, may well not be the case).

 

As to her criminal liabilities, well - lets hope we hear molre of what happens to her.

[howardang]

To get back to the original subject, I'm surprised no one has flagged up that if she (the ramming speed) captain of the boat did not have a court approved alcohol test of some sort - blood, urine, calibrated breath test machine, - she cannot be prosecuted as being drunk in charge of anything.

 

Also, 'she was going at 10 mph' from a member of the public, even multiple members of the public will carry no weight in a court.

 

Criminal damage? I don't know what the definition of criminal is but the police weren't interested when my car got smashed when parked even though I had CCTV of the incident including the perpetrators reg number so why would they be that bothered about a boating bump where no one got hurt.

 

What's the betting it ends up as an insurance argument and her getting nothing harder than a fixed penalty fine for being naughty in a public place.

 

I'm not saying she wasn't guilty of all above, I'm saying what any court will say.

 

 

 

 

It does beg the question about how CRT would get a successful prosecution in the event of a breach of their own bye law

 

44. No person shall navigate any vessel on any canal or take any

part in the navigation, mooring or handling of any vessel on the

canal whilst under the influence of drink to such an extent as to

be incapable of having proper control of the vessel."

 

I would think that they would have to persuade the police to attend and breathalyse anyone suspected of a breach. I suspect thast this may already happen in cases of serious accidents or fatalities.

 

Howard

Edited March 22, 2015 by howardang