Serious Incident - Shropshire Union Nr Chester 11/03/2015

[MtB]

 

It does beg the question about how CRT would get a successful prosecution in the event of a breach of their own bye law

 

44. No person shall navigate any vessel on any canal or take any

part in the navigation, mooring or handling of any vessel on the

canal whilst under the influence of drink to such an extent as to

be incapable of having proper control of the vessel."

 

I would think that they would have to persuade the police to attend and breathalyse anyone suspected of a breach. I suspect thast this may already happen in cases of serious accidents or fatalities.

 

Howard

 

 

I suspect the police have no powers to make a drunken boater give a breath sample.

[Peter X]

Given the description we've had of events, I'd say that so long as significant damage was done (maybe hundreds of pounds worth, I'm not sure what would be enough), and it could be shown that the defendant was the person who did the damage, a prosecution under the Criminal Damage Act 1971 should succeed.

 

The case would probably turn on the question of establishing "recklessness", as described here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recklessness_(law)#Restriction_of_this_test_to_criminal_damage_and_reckless_driving

and if I were the prosecution I'd be relying on the precedent described there of R v Caldwell, specifically that:

"The Lords ultimately ruled that self-induced intoxication could be a defence to specific intent, but not to basic intent, i.e. recklessness"

In other words, if the defendant was blind drunk she may not have intended to damage boats and their contents, but was reckless to be using her boat. If she was sober I'd still argue that she was reckless, this time because it should have been obvious to her after the first collision or two that she was so incompetent that she was likely to cause further damage if she continued.

 

In the case of Galeomma's damaged car in a car park, it might be more difficult to prove that it wasn't just an unfortunate accident resulting from one error by a sober driver.

[howardang]

 

 

I suspect the police have no powers to make a drunken boater give a breath sample.

You may well be right, but in that case how would CRT ever be able to prosecute any leisure boater under their own bye law if they can't check their alcohol levels in serious incidents where it is thought that the boater is under the influence. In many professional marine shipping companies it is a condition of employment under a drug and alcohol policy to agree to random drug and alcohol tests, but there is no equivalent which affects leisure boating. However, I would be very surprised if it wasn't done routinely as part of a fatal accident or serious injury enquiry.

 

Howard

[furnessvale]

You may well be right, but in that case how would CRT ever be able to prosecute any leisure boater under their own bye law if they can't check their alcohol levels in serious incidents where it is thought that the boater is under the influence. In many professional marine shipping companies it is a condition of employment under a drug and alcohol policy to agree to random drug and alcohol tests, but there is no equivalent which affects leisure boating. However, I would be very surprised if it wasn't done routinely as part of a fatal accident or serious injury enquiry.

 

Howard

I have no idea who has the powers but it would have to be done in the old fashioned way which is how it is done with respect to drunk in charge of a horse/bicycle/child etc.

 

"His speech was slurred, his eyes were glazed, he was unable to walk a straight line. Your worship, he was DRUNK!"

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[junior]

 

Also, 'she was going at 10 mph' from a member of the public, even multiple members of the public will carry no weight in a court.

 

So what would be needed to secure a speeding conviction, as it seems it has happened before? A quick Google suggests that it has happened before. This is a case in Lincolnshire, although it doesn't mention how they knew the boat was speeding.

 

http://m.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Skipper-fined-speeding-lake/story-11214694-detail/story.html

[GUMPY]

So what would be needed to secure a speeding conviction, as it seems it has happened before? A quick Google suggests that it has happened before. This is a case in Lincolnshire, although it doesn't mention how they knew the boat was speeding.

 

http://m.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Skipper-fined-speeding-lake/story-11214694-detail/story.html

Maybe Rachael will tell you how they nicked her directly Edited March 22, 2015 by Loddon

[craftycarper]

So what would be needed to secure a speeding conviction, as it seems it has happened before? A quick Google suggests that it has happened before. This is a case in Lincolnshire, although it doesn't mention how they knew the boat was speeding.http://m.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Skipper-fined-speeding-lake/story-11214694-detail/story.html

. I believe this is achieved by working out the time taken to cover a known distance I,e two locks

[junior]

. I believe this is achieved by working out the time taken to cover a known distance I,e two locks

Do you mean that is what happened in the case I linked to?

[craftycarper]

Do you mean that is what happened in the case I linked to?

sorry but did,nt read your link, but on the G and S were the bridges are all manned if I went through Purton bridge at 1pm and arrived at slimbridge ten minutes later, a distance of two miles I would receive a letter from CRT telling me of my speeding, don't know what penalty they can impose but that's how they do it, the same as the toll roads in Europe if you reach the next toll booth to quickly you get a speeding ticket for your trouble, so I assume this would be a safe stand up in court way of getting a conviction

[b0atman]

If the police had been called because of the criminal damage they would have breathalized the driver of the boat .

[Galeomma]

If the police had been called because of the criminal damage they would have breathalized the driver of the boat .

You might be right, but they don't breathalyser people when they lob a brick through a window on a Saturday night. I have never heard of them breathalising anyone other than road traffic cases.

 

In the Marine commercial world for my company, any accident is accompanied by compulsory D&A testing but there is a specific procedure in place for that. I have absolutely no idea who else would be involved as far a compulsory testing on the inland waterways in cases of an accident. MCA. MAIB, Police?

[Emerald Fox]

"If the police had been called because of the criminal damage they would have breathalized the driver of the boat ." (b0atman)

 

That seems like the sensible route, surely? In Finland, any accident/incident and you're breathalysed straight away.

It's quite clear that the insurance company of the person who did the damage is the insurance company to fork out. Perhaps they should consider not insuring middle-finger-wagging drunkess in future.

And the cops should have chucked her in a cell to sober up (did they?). Cold porridge for breakfast.

 

Of speeding between A-B I know of this: the long tunnel under Oslo Fjord (southern Norway) has a speed camera in the middle, at the bottom. It's a long way down and steep. Many overspeeders brake before the camera and then foot down after it. They don't realise their vehicle has been photographed upon entering the tunnel, and photographed on emerging from the tunnel and the speed calculated from the time elapsed, of course. Slap! Instant fine!

Also, bear in mind your mobile phone - if it's at A then B which is 100 miles away in 1 hour - er... how did it get there so fast? All this info recorded all the time.

 

I've had photos of my car sent to me twice from the Norwegian Road Toll Authorities ("Our holiday pics have arrived!") and they are remarkably sharp/clear (first time coin-drops had vanished and I didn't know about the pre-payment scheme, second time we expected to pay cash for a ferry but it had been replaced by a new tunnel and nowhere to pay. They just ask for the toll, no fine, which is fair. I did write to them the first time and say that there's no info for visitors displayed anywhere, how are they supposed to know about how to pay for the toll station, and that they didn't really think their scheme through properly did they?).

(Anyway, although little to do with canals, Norway is a staggeringly awesome country for wild & impressive scenery).

[mrsmelly]

If the police had been called because of the criminal damage they would have breathalized the driver of the boat .

 

Under what act and section do they have that power?

 

Tim

[Barry]

So what would be needed to secure a speeding conviction, as it seems it has happened before? A quick Google suggests that it has happened before. This is a case in Lincolnshire, although it doesn't mention how they knew the boat was speeding.

 

http://m.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Skipper-fined-speeding-lake/story-11214694-detail/story.html

 

So what would be needed to secure a speeding conviction, as it seems it has happened before? A quick Google suggests that it has happened before. This is a case in Lincolnshire, although it doesn't mention how they knew the boat was speeding.

 

http://m.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Skipper-fined-speeding-lake/story-11214694-detail/story.html

 

 

Do you mean that is what happened in the case I linked to?

 

The speeder is an active forum member. Its not up to me to decide if she wants to discuss the case openly so I've PM'd you her identity so that you can ask her directly if you want to

[boathunter]

^ I think he, and the rest of the forum, knows exactly who it is.

[Barry]

I suspect a lot of the old hands on the forum does - but I don't have Junior down as being that disingenuous

[mayalld]

If the police had been called because of the criminal damage they would have breathalized the driver of the boat .

No they wouldn't, because they have no power to do so

[MtB]

If the police had been called because of the criminal damage they would have breathalized the driver of the boat .

 

 

No they wouldn't, because the steerer of the boat would be entitled to tell them to shove their breath test.

 

Unless you can show otherwise?

 

MtB

[Guest]

I suspect a lot of the old hands on the forum does - but I don't have Junior down as being that disingenuous

Not aimed at you Barry but your post was a good one to tag on to.

 

But Each and every time this comes up I genuinely wonder if the member in question is ever going to be allowed to forget it. It was speeding in a boat. No body died.

 

I would like to see the person who has never done wrong step forward and answer please.....otherwise just belt up.

[Naughty Cal]

So what would be needed to secure a speeding conviction, as it seems it has happened before? A quick Google suggests that it has happened before. This is a case in Lincolnshire, although it doesn't mention how they knew the boat was speeding.

 

http://m.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Skipper-fined-speeding-lake/story-11214694-detail/story.html

I grassed myself up.

 

Eta: I was never arrested. The police attended the boat when I had moored up but there was no arrest and I was let on my way back to the marina after a few minutes later.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Naughty Cal

[mayalld]

Not aimed at you Barry but your post was a good one to tag on to.

 

But Each and every time this comes up I genuinely wonder if the member in question is ever going to be allowed to forget it. It was speeding in a boat. No body died.

 

I would like to see the person who has never done wrong step forward and answer please.....otherwise just belt up.

 

Whilst the point is taken, NC would appear to take a bit of light hearted ribbing about her naughtyness in good part, so I rather doubt that it will ever be forgotten!

 

She gets off fairly lightly, because the lift bridge question is seldom raised these days!

[Rufford]

 

I may adopt that as a signature, I'm not sure most boaters could admit to anything more

 

Richard

 

Its about all that I can say. And of course when I say that none of my boats have sank; a water tank dumping its contents into the boat does not count!

[Markinaboat]

 

 

No they wouldn't, because the steerer of the boat would be entitled to tell them to shove their breath test.

 

Unless you can show otherwise?

 

MtB

What about 'drunk & disorderly' Mike?

[furnessvale]

What about 'drunk & disorderly' Mike?

You still don't get a breath test, and you need to be disorderly.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[DaveC]

Some years ago a "boater" on the K & A near Devizes caused havoc, colliding with a number of boats and causing considerable damage. He was breathalysed by the police and DID end up in court as a result. I can't recall what his sentence was. (I do know the name of the boat though, but I think it has since been changed.)

 

Dave