CRT enforce modern license display for historic boats

[alan_fincher]

Good Grief Alan ----------

You mean, apart from the shred that is a photo on our wall of J.James steering the boat bearing the GU index number AND in his carrying days.

Sorry - not getting it out of the frame to put it on here just to prove it (even if I knew how).

 

I give up!

 

I am not suggesting it never carried the number - obviously it would have for much of its life

 

It is the "carried for 79 years" I'm challenging, as that statement to me implies continuity throughout those 79 years, (actually 78, a it can't have carried a gauge number before it was first issued). . If there were periods when it did not carry the number, (as clearly there were, as they were not present for example when dumped on the Wendover arm), then it has not, by most people's use of English, "carried them" for 79 years - being present when Jack James, (or indeed anybody else), was steering at some earlier date doesn't change that, does it?

Edited February 5, 2015 by alan_fincher

[Machpoint005]

Perhaps the plates should be riveted on, then certain boats would have at least four genuine rivets showing on each side.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[pete harrison]

Good Grief Alan ----------

You mean, apart from the shred that is a photo on our wall of J.James steering the boat bearing the GU index number AND in his carrying days.

Sorry - not getting it out of the frame to put it on here just to prove it (even if I knew how).

But what you are calling a GU index number simply is not an index number at all. It is a Grand Union Canal Company gauge number, and its only relevance to BADSEY is that it was used in the purpose of charging and collection of tolls - a practice that pretty nuch ended in the 1950's. Under the ownership of G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. this number was prefixed with "GU" and under the ownership of 'British Waterways it was prefixed with "BW". This number is not, and never has been an index number and you are completely misinterpreting its use.

 

BADSEY was issued with a 'British Waterways' index number in 1980 along with every other boat on their waterways at that time, and this numbering system has more or less continued since (but not in numerical order). I would suggest that BADSEY possibly lost its aluminium number plates when the fore end deck beam was replaced, but in my opinion it should still display this number in some way (new plates or painted).

[alan_fincher]

But what you are calling a GU index number simply is not an index number at all. It is a Grand Union Canal Company gauge number, and its only relevance to BADSEY is that it was used in the purpose of charging and collection of tolls - a practice that pretty nuch ended in the 1950's.

 

Pete,

 

Purely as a matter of interest, but by about hat date do you think having gauge numbers painted n a GUCCCo boat had largely ceased to happen please?

 

I must admit it is not something I have thought about a great deal, but certainly scanning through pictures of the latter days of regular long distance carrying, I see little evidence of any still present.

 

I realise there is probably no definitive answer, but presumably after some dat BW no longer did, and I can't recall seeing them on image of Willow Wren operated boats, whatever livery they were in at the time.

[pete harrison]

 

Pete,

 

Purely as a matter of interest, but by about hat date do you think having gauge numbers painted n a GUCCCo boat had largely ceased to happen please?

 

I must admit it is not something I have thought about a great deal, but certainly scanning through pictures of the latter days of regular long distance carrying, I see little evidence of any still present.

 

I realise there is probably no definitive answer, but presumably after some dat BW no longer did, and I can't recall seeing them on image of Willow Wren operated boats, whatever livery they were in at the time.

Period photographs of 'British Waterways' southern narrow boats of the late 1950's and early 1960's show some boats to be lettered with a gauge number and some not. 'Willow Wren' boats were not painted with Grand Union gauge numbers, and some of their boats were not Grand Union gauged at all, but in contrast some of their boat names are added to original Grand Union Canal Company gauge tables - and several 'Willow Wren' and 'Wyvern Shipping' boats appear as new gaugings on the B.C.N..

[junior]

in some pageant for backward looking folk

*cough cough* where were you on June 28th 2014? ;-p

[nicknorman]

*cough cough* where were you on June 28th 2014? ;-p

Lost. My sat nav is useless!

 

 

 

Or you could have

 

Watching the folk watching the old boats - a bit like going to the zoo, or to some touristy tribal dance show in Borneo.

Edited February 5, 2015 by nicknorman

[madcat]

It's a zoo round here just now , 1 cat contemplating a storm in a teacup .

 

 

Nobody has ever bothered much before now about what's written on old boats and probably a lot of newer ones too. I've always considered the paper licence to be ID enough but it looks like things have changed.

 

 

I think a lot of us are not best pleased by the tone of communications from CRT , it's unpleasant and disconcerting.

[Ian Mac]

All,

Both our boats have Bridgewater numbers and plates. Rudd's being B0849. We do BW/CRT short term licences!

This causes confusion to any BW/CRT person who wishes to enquire!

Coming up The Bratch a good while ago a troupe of green waterproof people were alarmed that we bore no recognisable number or licence.

I pointed out the plates on the deckbeam/headledge and waved the physical licence.

No good! The licence could not be in the ticket drawer. It must be fixed to the outside of the cabin. FMC cabins do no have windows or such fripperies.

I pinned the the licence to the top of the top plank where it could be viewed from the overbridge by binoculars.

Clipboard was happy, they left smug in their rightiousness.

Licence back into ticket drawer.

 

Tim

 

I have had more talks with the good people of Leeds today, they rang me back, well done C&RT. There is indeed a grand plan (it was not clear if this was yet policy) to go paperless for licences, as per Car Road Tax. This requires that an Index number is always visible. I have no problems with this. I then asked about how those of us who live in other licensing jurisdictions, are going to be accommodated. Having now seen that the The Cam Conservators are like the Bridgewater and they too have opted for the standard index system using CC[number] as the Bridgewater Dept uses B[Number] I believe that the index number should reflect your Home Mooring or CC base. Then its similar to foreign cars on UK roads, except that a licence can be bought where there are not reciprocal agreements in place. I said I did not want a huge trophy list of index plates, just because I used the whole connected system, which is what we had talked about when they were originally introduced, many years ago. What C&RT needed was a licensing system which could also manage with other authorities Index numbers, then it all worked. There did not seem to be a requirement to use the nice plates just to have the index number display in the correct size and legibility.

They have taken my comments away for further consideration, so at least they are listening.

I also mentioned displaying the current license and how should it be done sensibly on a Historic Craft with no windows, given that we learnt a long time ago that yobs just wreak them if affixed to the outside of a boat. The answer was simple, produce it when asked, and its why we would like to go to a index plate system.

As to Mr Hoggs idea, its not to hard to do, the home mooring licensing authority would just need to issue a RFI stud or similar passive electronic ID object which must be attached to the outside of your boat, an bobs your uncle, it would then be dead easy to track each boats movements, at key points. This would be probably significantly better than the boat counters, tried a few years ago which also counted ducks,geese and Swans! and could facilitate a charge by usage system, not that I'm sure about having such a scheme. It could also help with the policing of CCing and those of us straying beyond our reciprocal limits.

--

Cheers Ian Mac

[roland elsdon]

Expect paper storm when we get back to UK.... Modern number painted in deck board support, invisible when clothed up. Name in illegally small letters on dog box (covered for winter) licences in portholes covered in snow. Alloy plates in crumb drawer. Finally dragon moored alongside hiding her from tow path. Of course it's on its registered mooring, licenced insured laid up, and they are aware of what we do having accused us of. Continuous cruising last year without permission. ( tricky when you leave a boat on your mooring for 6 months whilst you go assisting the colonials in return for food vouchers in their summer) more paper probably spet. Complaining to us than 10 years licences........

[matty40s]

 

 

They have taken my comments away for further consideration, so at least they are listening.

 

 

They will put them in front of a user group, have several internal think tanks, invite the IWA for an opinion, have a brief consultation period of 2 weeks, emailed out to anyone who has attended Ellesmere Port Museum recently........

 

and then send more snotty letters out repeating the request.

[Tuscan]

They have taken my comments away for further consideration, so at least they are listening.

 

 

They will put them in front of a user group, have several internal think tanks, invite the IWA for an opinion, have a brief consultation period of 2 weeks, emailed out to anyone who has attended Ellesmere Port Museum recently........

 

and then send more snotty letters out repeating the request.

Don't forget volunteers handing out questionnaires

Edited February 6, 2015 by Tuscan

[David Schweizer]

Back in the dim and distant past, i seem to remember reading somewhere that the index number had to be displayed on each side of the cabin in white letters at least 2" high on a black background, or was that the Local Authority registration number?

 

I am certainly unaware of any legal requirement to use the hideous aluminium plates issued back in the 1980's and Helvetia has not carried them for years (ours are hanging in the workshop), and have always had the number painted on the cabin. The latest version painted by Dave Moore complies with the colour requirements as I remember them, but I resisted using the awful catagory "Index Number" and nodded to tradion by using "Registration No."

 

 

Edited February 6, 2015 by David Schweizer

[Derek R.]

Lots of modern boats have Registered at Watford No. xxxxxx (when it was Watford), but as to listening, we have had "listening governments" but you might as well be talking to the radio for what effect it has. Once an authoritative body goes beyond a certain point in the hierarchical ladder, listening and consultations are a waste of their time. Ken Livingstone came out with the statement that both were a necessary evil of which he took no notice but was duty bound to perform. He claimed Londoners wanted the congestion charge - a blatant lie. It was condemned by all who lived and worked within the area. It was claimed if Londoners did not want it, it would not be introduced. Bluff and bluster. Sweet talk. Never happened.

 

RFID chips have been mentioned twice now, and that is probably the way things will go. Whether numbers should be linked to 'home' moorings is unnecessary in my view, but will further able CRT to 'control' another aspect. Everything you do, everywhere you go, everything you buy is logged and goes onto some database. It's not like people have anything to hide, it's that they want to be left to get on with their pastimes and lives without prying eyes. But put the boot on the other foot and try and get information from government, and you will soon find things are kept very well hidden.

 

Would a total computer knowledge base of boat movements help assess a schedule of allocated maintenance? Perhaps it would if the resources were available. But why should such a maintenance schedule be dictated by how many boats use a certain portion of waterway? All waterways need maintenance. The vast majority of boaters pay their dues and if the income does not meet the expenses, then expect increases in everything, because the few "freeloaders" getting caught will not make a dint in boosting the income. It's the regulation abiding that will get stung as they are by far the majority in numbers, and the easier that is to control, the more control will be forthcoming regardless of what the users want and consider fair play.

 

The cut has become a playground. You do not control the gate price.

[Laurence Hogg]

 

Pete,

 

Purely as a matter of interest, but by about hat date do you think having gauge numbers painted n a GUCCCo boat had largely ceased to happen please?

 

I must admit it is not something I have thought about a great deal, but certainly scanning through pictures of the latter days of regular long distance carrying, I see little evidence of any still present.

 

I realise there is probably no definitive answer, but presumably after some dat BW no longer did, and I can't recall seeing them on image of Willow Wren operated boats, whatever livery they were in at the time.

 

Alan don't forget these gauging numbers were not just painted on the cabins but on the gunwale too at the gauging points of the hold, stamped metal strips embedded in the wood, some survive today on a few boats.

[FadeToScarlet]

Perhaps the plates should be riveted on, then certain boats would have at least four genuine rivets showing on each side.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Away with ye, I don't want any of those horrible 19th century old technology rivets on my nice old boat

[Bee]

Lots of modern boats have Registered at Watford No. xxxxxx (when it was Watford), but as to listening, we have had "listening governments" but you might as well be talking to the radio for what effect it has. Once an authoritative body goes beyond a certain point in the hierarchical ladder, listening and consultations are a waste of their time. Ken Livingstone came out with the statement that both were a necessary evil of which he took no notice but was duty bound to perform. He claimed Londoners wanted the congestion charge - a blatant lie. It was condemned by all who lived and worked within the area. It was claimed if Londoners did not want it, it would not be introduced. Bluff and bluster. Sweet talk. Never happened.

 

RFID chips have been mentioned twice now, and that is probably the way things will go. Whether numbers should be linked to 'home' moorings is unnecessary in my view, but will further able CRT to 'control' another aspect. Everything you do, everywhere you go, everything you buy is logged and goes onto some database. It's not like people have anything to hide, it's that they want to be left to get on with their pastimes and lives without prying eyes. But put the boot on the other foot and try and get information from government, and you will soon find things are kept very well hidden.

 

Would a total computer knowledge base of boat movements help assess a schedule of allocated maintenance? Perhaps it would if the resources were available. But why should such a maintenance schedule be dictated by how many boats use a certain portion of waterway? All waterways need maintenance. The vast majority of boaters pay their dues and if the income does not meet the expenses, then expect increases in everything, because the few "freeloaders" getting caught will not make a dint in boosting the income. It's the regulation abiding that will get stung as they are by far the majority in numbers, and the easier that is to control, the more control will be forthcoming regardless of what the users want and consider fair play.

 

The cut has become a playground. You do not control the gate price.

Yep. All true. depressingly perceptive.

[David Schweizer]

How will RFID chips work then? There is no way that CaRT could force anyone to fit one to their boat, unless there was new legislation to impose the requirement. So it would be down to boat owners to fit them vountarily. Many boaters would, but the people whose (non) movement CaRT really want to track would not, and would just hide under the radar. Such non compliance would be difficult and time consuming to monitor, so any such scheme, without legislation, would be an expensive waste of time.

Edited February 7, 2015 by David Schweizer

[furnessvale]

Away with ye, I don't want any of those horrible 19th century old technology rivets on my nice old boat

But I will hazard a guess that the only washers on WILLOW are under nuts and bolts.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Paul C]

How will RFID chips work then? There is no way that CaRT could force anyone to fit one to their boat, unless there was new legislation to impose the requirement. So it would be down to boat owners to fit them vountarily. Many boaters would, but the people whose (non) movement CaRT really want to track would not, and would just hide under the radar. Such non compliance would be difficult and time consuming to monitor, so any such scheme, without legislation, would be an expensive waste of time.

 

I guess whoever mentioned it was joking, RFID would be a non-starter for many reasons.

[FadeToScarlet]

How will RFID chips work then? There is no way that CaRT could force anyone to fit one to their boat, unless there was new legislation to impose the requirement. So it would be down to boat owners to fit them vountarily. Many boaters would, but the people whose (non) movement CaRT really want to track would not, and would just hide under the radar. Such non compliance would be difficult and time consuming to monitor, so any such scheme, without legislation, would be an expensive waste of time.

Well, sort of.

 

It's a bit like TV licences- there's no need for detector vans (which allegedly never existed) because all they need to do is cross reference the list of who has bought a TV licence with a list of addresses, and go after the ones who are not on both lists.

 

Put a small RFID chip on the back of each paper licence, put readers in pinch points at about window level- the exits of narrow locks, say, or under bridge arches- and then see who never appears on any of them.

 

I'm not saying it's in any way a good idea, or one that I'd support, but it would be possible.

[Timleech]

Well, sort of.

 

It's a bit like TV licences- there's no need for detector vans (which allegedly never existed) because all they need to do is cross reference the list of who has bought a TV licence with a list of addresses, and go after the ones who are not on both lists.

 

 

They did exist, but really only stood much chance of detecting anything from CRT television sets. They would be on a hiding to nothing with modern sets.

 

What you describe is indeed what they seem to do, but don't forget that these things are easy now with computerised records, it hasn't always been that simple.

 

Tim

[Laurence Hogg]

Well, sort of.

 

It's a bit like TV licences- there's no need for detector vans (which allegedly never existed) because all they need to do is cross reference the list of who has bought a TV licence with a list of addresses, and go after the ones who are not on both lists.

 

Put a small RFID chip on the back of each paper licence, put readers in pinch points at about window level- the exits of narrow locks, say, or under bridge arches- and then see who never appears on any of them.

 

I'm not saying it's in any way a good idea, or one that I'd support, but it would be possible.

 

ANPR or plate / barcode readers are better as they can detcet a boat passing with no iD. Gauging numbers and the like have always been displayed on boats I cannot see the issue with displaying CRT plates now. Did FMC have a uprising cos they had to paint the Thames watermans number on every boat?

[Derek R.]

(Snip)

 

It's a bit like TV licences- there's no need for detector vans (which allegedly never existed) because all they need to do is cross reference the list of who has bought a TV licence with a list of addresses, and go after the ones who are not on both lists.

 

(snip)

 

And then get told to bog off if the TV set does not receive live broadcasts due to the aerial not being connected.

[koukouvagia]

Did FMC have a uprising cos they had to paint the Thames watermans number on every boat?

I'm intrigued by the Thames Watermen's Hall number (1396) you often see on the black and white liveried FMC boats.

As I understand it this number indicated that the boat was licensed to enter the Thames. Apparently, (according to Alan Faulkner) the last boat so registered was Russia in 1903. I wonder why it was no longer required?

This number therefore was painted on later FMC boats long after it was strictly necessary, rather like modern owners of historic narrowboats wishing to preserve earlier, but redundant, registration numbers.

Perhaps there was an outcry in the 1920s against this nostalgia (sounds familiar?) At any rate, when FMC was re-founded in 1921, the new livery didn't include the Watermen's number.

Edited February 7, 2015 by koukouvagia