New boat builder - lots of questions

[Ed Earl]

Hi, just bought my first boat, Norman 23, bought as a shell, I’m in the process of refurbishing the boat and adding a rear deck to allow a little more space. Firstly - the whole gas locker situation ! Do I need a locker if the gas is chained up on the rear deck external to the interior living quarters ?? Secondly are there any regulations that would hamper my plans to put a counter lever rear deck on the boat extending the length by approx 1250mm ? 
thirdly what is the recommended process to prepare, prime, paint and antifoul the water bound elevations? What are the best products to use ?  4thly is it a bss requirement to have a bilg or submerse pump installed to counter flooding, water ingress or sinking ? Finally can anyone recommend an outboard motor 10hp or more with forward and reverse gears, some thing reliable that won’t cost more than the boat ? 
 

any feed back would great appreciated

 

thanks Ed  

[LadyG]

There might be a FB group for Norman owners, not saying there won't be some on here.

You don't say what you intend to do with the boat, that might help, presumably you want to cook, and stay overnight on occasion?

I expect you will be looking at a petrol outboard though diesels are available, much less hazardous of course.

There will be a requirement for insurance, Boat Safety Certificate, and a licence of some sort if used on the canals.

A Whale manual pump might be easier.

If you need electricity, this is another safety aspect, and how would you replace energy?

I think you might be advised to count up the costs before you start work. If you want a bigger boat it might be best to start with a 27ft boat, bastardising a 23 foot Norman could make it more difficult fo sell on, even if you think you have added value, its not likely.

 

Edited June 8 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

Firstly - the whole gas locker situation ! Do I need a locker if the gas is chained up on the rear deck external to the interior living quarters ??

 

 

YES. (If your boat is going on waters subject to the BSS regulations)

No. (if you are using the boat on the sea)

 

You can mount a 'basket' on the transom and sit your gas cylinder in that, but having a cylinder just sat on the rear deck at the same height as the bottom of the door into the cabin space is not allowed.

 

The cylinder MUST be fitted so any gas leak is directed overboard - LPG is heavier than air so given the chance it will just float about on your rear deck, and slowly work its way into the hull / bilges.

 

Some time ago there was a forum member advertising that he manufactured the gas cylinders 'baskets', or you will find them in a good chandlery.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

Hi, just bought my first boat, Norman 23, bought as a shell, I’m in the process of refurbishing the boat and adding a rear deck to allow a little more space. Firstly - the whole gas locker situation ! Do I need a locker if the gas is chained up on the rear deck external to the interior living quarters ?? Secondly are there any regulations that would hamper my plans to put a counter lever rear deck on the boat extending the length by approx 1250mm ? 
thirdly what is the recommended process to prepare, prime, paint and antifoul the water bound elevations? What are the best products to use ?  4thly is it a bss requirement to have a bilg or submerse pump installed to counter flooding, water ingress or sinking ? Finally can anyone recommend an outboard motor 10hp or more with forward and reverse gears, some thing reliable that won’t cost more than the boat ? 
 

any feed back would great appreciated

 

thanks Ed  

 

Do not forget that if there is any electricity on board you will have to put back into the batteries between 130% & 150% of what you have taken out, and small outboards tend to have a low or very low charging rate.

 

The gas question. If there is any chance that a leak from the cylinder(s) can get into the hull then it will need a gas tank, but as you do not show any plans for this rear deck no one can be sure.

 

It is a GRP boat, so a thorough rub down with suitable compound might mean no painting is required. Otherwise, talk to the technical department of International, Hemple, or any other marine paint supplier to find out what they recommend. At least it will be abrading with a suitable abrasive to give a key, then primer, undercoat ad top coat.

 

Extending the rear deck by about 4 feet is not a simple job, with that overhang it will need bracing. You will also find it makes access to the outboard difficult or impossible.

 

Why not download the BSS guide from the BSS website, but I do not think a bilge pump is mandatory BSS wise, but the insurance company might have a different idea.

[Bod]

4 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

Hi, just bought my first boat, Norman 23, bought as a shell, I’m in the process of refurbishing the boat and adding a rear deck to allow a little more space. Firstly - the whole gas locker situation ! Do I need a locker if the gas is chained up on the rear deck external to the interior living quarters ?? Secondly are there any regulations that would hamper my plans to put a counter lever rear deck on the boat extending the length by approx 1250mm ? 
thirdly what is the recommended process to prepare, prime, paint and antifoul the water bound elevations? What are the best products to use ?  4thly is it a bss requirement to have a bilg or submerse pump installed to counter flooding, water ingress or sinking ? Finally can anyone recommend an outboard motor 10hp or more with forward and reverse gears, some thing reliable that won’t cost more than the boat ? 
 

any feed back would great appreciated

 

thanks Ed  

You are at the beginngs of a very steep learning curve, come back to us with any questions, but accept there will be answers that do not agree with what you want to do. 

There are good reasons why some ideas work and others don't.

Regulations may not hamper your rear deck idea, but physically it could upset the balance of the boat, leading to major stability problems, or sinking.

You extend by the 1250mm, your 15 stone mate walks to the end, lowering the back of the boat enough to allow water over the transom.....sunk.

I don't know the age of the hull, but if it's built after 1999, then a whole raft of regulations, that you have to follow, in order to be able to sell the boat, come in.

A tip worth remembering, it will take 4 times longer than you think, and 4 times more expensive than you think.

 

Bod.

 

[PaulJ]

Dolphin boats did this a good few years ago.

A real pain to change steering cables etc and Im sure the Truma water heater was mounted in the rear pod which was bolted on if I rememember correctly (although my memory isnt the best)

Some brochures here to give you an idea 

https://www.jonesboatyard.co.uk/boat-sales/dolphin-boats-for-sale.html

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

Secondly are there any regulations that would hamper my plans to put a counter lever rear deck on the boat extending the length by approx 1250mm ? 

The extra length will increase the cost of licence and moorings.

[Up-Side-Down]

5 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

Hi, just bought my first boat, Norman 23, bought as a shell, I’m in the process of refurbishing the boat and adding a rear deck to allow a little more space. Firstly - the whole gas locker situation ! Do I need a locker if the gas is chained up on the rear deck external to the interior living quarters ?? Secondly are there any regulations that would hamper my plans to put a counter lever rear deck on the boat extending the length by approx 1250mm ? 
thirdly what is the recommended process to prepare, prime, paint and antifoul the water bound elevations? What are the best products to use ?  4thly is it a bss requirement to have a bilg or submerse pump installed to counter flooding, water ingress or sinking ? Finally can anyone recommend an outboard motor 10hp or more with forward and reverse gears, some thing reliable that won’t cost more than the boat ? 
 

any feed back would great appreciated

 

thanks Ed  

You might find that using an electric outboard makes complying with sections of the BSS easier.

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

You might find that using an electric outboard makes complying with sections of the BSS easier.

 

and keeping the batteries charged harder, possibly far harder.

[Up-Side-Down]

Indeed! Swings and roundabouts!!

[agg221]

Firstly, regardless of anything else I would want to arrange drainage to a single point and fit an automatic bilge pump. This is not about making it easier to remove a bit of water, it's about the time that a problem arises, water starts to come in and you aren't there to address it. It's the difference between coming back to a floating boat and a sunk boat. They are pretty simple - a battery, a pump with a float switch and ideally a skin fitting in the hull to take it through, but you could get away with leading it over the rear deck.

 

For everything else I think a huge amount depends on your intended use for the boat, your skills and your budget. If you want to use it in nice weather to potter about for a couple of hours up the river, a single battery, small solar panel and electric outboard might suit, as you have a week to recharge and are not asking much of it in terms of capacity. If you want to use it daily throughout the winter that is a whole different question and probably wants diesel to generate electricity for lighting, and also needs heating.

 

The 'pod' concept for the Dolphin is the ultimate solution to how you extend the boat, add a gas locker and contain the drive, fuel tank etc. but custom building that would take some significant time and be a major learning curve. Perhaps something for the next boat?

 

If you want inspiration (or fear?) then these two threads by Wayne - @W+T are outstanding in showing just what can be achieved with effort and skill. The second one in particular is an epic saga, of which I am somewhat in awe, but really does show what is possible.

 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/110058-captain-faffer-is-in-a-fury-now/

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/76076-a-wee-one-to-start-again/

 

Alec

[GUMPY]

If I understand you correctly you want to put a 4ft platform on the back of a 23ft boat. What do you think will happen if you put any weight on this platform?

Unless you put a large amount of ballast in the bow your boat will take on the look of a speed boat travelling at great speed.

It will be dangerous 🫢

 

 

 

[cuthound]

I wonder what happened to Wayne? He hasn't visited CWDF since last November. I always used to enjoy his posts and be amazed at his skills. Nothing seems to phase him.

[Mad Harold]

57 minutes ago, cuthound said:

I wonder what happened to Wayne? He hasn't visited CWDF since last November. I always used to enjoy his posts and be amazed at his skills. Nothing seems to phase him.

 I too am full of admiration of Wayne's skill and determination.

I think his posts describing his projects are essential reading for anyone considering taking on a project.

9 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

Hi, just bought my first boat, Norman 23, bought as a shell, I’m in the process of refurbishing the boat and adding a rear deck to allow a little more space. Firstly - the whole gas locker situation ! Do I need a locker if the gas is chained up on the rear deck external to the interior living quarters ?? Secondly are there any regulations that would hamper my plans to put a counter lever rear deck on the boat extending the length by approx 1250mm ? 
thirdly what is the recommended process to prepare, prime, paint and antifoul the water bound elevations? What are the best products to use ?  4thly is it a bss requirement to have a bilg or submerse pump installed to counter flooding, water ingress or sinking ? Finally can anyone recommend an outboard motor 10hp or more with forward and reverse gears, some thing reliable that won’t cost more than the boat ? 
 

any feed back would great appreciated

 

thanks Ed  

I recommend seriously that you forget about a cantilever deck extension.You will knacker the boat, and render it unsellable, and let yourself into expensive and frustrating work.

I would leave the structure as Norman designed it and work with that, or buy a bigger boat.

 

[MtB]

12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

and keeping the batteries charged harder, possibly far harder.

 

I bet there is a forum somewhere, where someone is asking for an electric outboard with a decent alternator fitted....

 

 

[Ed Earl]

15 hours ago, agg221 said:

Firstly, regardless of anything else I would want to arrange drainage to a single point and fit an automatic bilge pump. This is not about making it easier to remove a bit of water, it's about the time that a problem arises, water starts to come in and you aren't there to address it. It's the difference between coming back to a floating boat and a sunk boat. They are pretty simple - a battery, a pump with a float switch and ideally a skin fitting in the hull to take it through, but you could get away with leading it over the rear deck.

 

For everything else I think a huge amount depends on your intended use for the boat, your skills and your budget. If you want to use it in nice weather to potter about for a couple of hours up the river, a single battery, small solar panel and electric outboard might suit, as you have a week to recharge and are not asking much of it in terms of capacity. If you want to use it daily throughout the winter that is a whole different question and probably wants diesel to generate electricity for lighting, and also needs heating.

 

The 'pod' concept for the Dolphin is the ultimate solution to how you extend the boat, add a gas locker and contain the drive, fuel tank etc. but custom building that would take some significant time and be a major learning curve. Perhaps something for the next boat?

 

If you want inspiration (or fear?) then these two threads by Wayne - @W+T are outstanding in showing just what can be achieved with effort and skill. The second one in particular is an epic saga, of which I am somewhat in awe, but really does show what is possible.

 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/110058-captain-faffer-is-in-a-fury-now/

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/76076-a-wee-one-to-start-again/

 

Alec

Thank you for your input, the link was really helpful.  Custom design and interiors is my profession, fitting out the interior, design the electrical systems, solar and air conditioning aren’t the issue, I’m finding the BSS compliance and regulations difficult to define or even find on the government portals, I have however reached out today to my local inspector and he’s provided a good insight to where I need to be.

[Ed Earl]

15 hours ago, GUMPY said:

If I understand you correctly you want to put a 4ft platform on the back of a 23ft boat. What do you think will happen if you put any weight on this platform?

Unless you put a large amount of ballast in the bow your boat will take on the look of a speed boat travelling at great speed.

It will be dangerous 🫢

 

 

 

Adding the additional deck has been difficult with Weight distribution, but i have calculated weight distribution mass and balanced the boat without additional ballast. This required the water tanks, leisure batteries, walking in shower and storage cupboard to be situated in the first 3rd of the boat. The deck construction is constructed in reinforced carbon fibre tubing, aluminium box section frame work and decked with DiDond anti slip boarding. The entire counter lever deck weighs less than a bag of building sand. 

[Ed Earl]

14 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

 I too am full of admiration of Wayne's skill and determination.

I think his posts describing his projects are essential reading for anyone considering taking on a project.

I recommend seriously that you forget about a cantilever deck extension.You will knacker the boat, and render it unsellable, and let yourself into expensive and frustrating work.

I would leave the structure as Norman designed it and work with that, or buy a bigger boat.

 

I appreciate your concern and comments, believe me it was a difficult decision and even more complex to calculate the weight distribution but it’s done now and actually works really well, the boat sits slightly lower on the front naturally but levels out nicely with 2 adult average size on the rear deck. Actually it’s added so much to the overall use and appeal of the boat. Once I’ve finished it I’ll post the pictures. Just wiring, upholstery and out board to fit. 

[Ed Earl]

19 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Do not forget that if there is any electricity on board you will have to put back into the batteries between 130% & 150% of what you have taken out, and small outboards tend to have a low or very low charging rate.

 

The gas question. If there is any chance that a leak from the cylinder(s) can get into the hull then it will need a gas tank, but as you do not show any plans for this rear deck no one can be sure.

 

It is a GRP boat, so a thorough rub down with suitable compound might mean no painting is required. Otherwise, talk to the technical department of International, Hemple, or any other marine paint supplier to find out what they recommend. At least it will be abrading with a suitable abrasive to give a key, then primer, undercoat ad top coat.

 

Extending the rear deck by about 4 feet is not a simple job, with that overhang it will need bracing. You will also find it makes access to the outboard difficult or impossible.

 

Why not download the BSS guide from the BSS website, but I do not think a bilge pump is mandatory BSS wise, but the insurance company might have a different idea.

Thank you, helpful information. The BSS portal is rubbish unless I’m looking in the wrong place. 
 

I constructed the rear deck today with real success. It helps that I’ve got access to carbon fibre 😬 the deck extends 1140mm from the rear of the boat, maintains a rear structural railing c/w bench seat, s/steel integral out board engine mount (advise taken from local boat builder) as long as I get the right long shaft motor it should work as designed. 

[Ed Earl]

19 hours ago, PaulJ said:

Dolphin boats did this a good few years ago.

A real pain to change steering cables etc and Im sure the Truma water heater was mounted in the rear pod which was bolted on if I rememember correctly (although my memory isnt the best)

Some brochures here to give you an idea 

https://www.jonesboatyard.co.uk/boat-sales/dolphin-boats-for-sale.html

👍👍

 

20 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

YES. (If your boat is going on waters subject to the BSS regulations)

No. (if you are using the boat on the sea)

 

You can mount a 'basket' on the transom and sit your gas cylinder in that, but having a cylinder just sat on the rear deck at the same height as the bottom of the door into the cabin space is not allowed.

 

The cylinder MUST be fitted so any gas leak is directed overboard - LPG is heavier than air so given the chance it will just float about on your rear deck, and slowly work its way into the hull / bilges.

 

Some time ago there was a forum member advertising that he manufactured the gas cylinders 'baskets', or you will find them in a good chandlery.

 

 

👍👍

[Ed Earl]

20 hours ago, LadyG said:

There might be a FB group for Norman owners, not saying there won't be some on here.

You don't say what you intend to do with the boat, that might help, presumably you want to cook, and stay overnight on occasion?

I expect you will be looking at a petrol outboard though diesels are available, much less hazardous of course.

There will be a requirement for insurance, Boat Safety Certificate, and a licence of some sort if used on the canals.

A Whale manual pump might be easier.

If you need electricity, this is another safety aspect, and how would you replace energy?

I think you might be advised to count up the costs before you start work. If you want a bigger boat it might be best to start with a 27ft boat, bastardising a 23 foot Norman could make it more difficult fo sell on, even if you think you have added value, its not likely.

 

 

20 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

YES. (If your boat is going on waters subject to the BSS regulations)

No. (if you are using the boat on the sea)

 

You can mount a 'basket' on the transom and sit your gas cylinder in that, but having a cylinder just sat on the rear deck at the same height as the bottom of the door into the cabin space is not allowed.

 

The cylinder MUST be fitted so any gas leak is directed overboard - LPG is heavier than air so given the chance it will just float about on your rear deck, and slowly work its way into the hull / bilges.

 

Some time ago there was a forum member advertising that he manufactured the gas cylinders 'baskets', or you will find them in a good chandlery.

 

Hi thank you for the information. You’re a gent. I’ve just purchase a gas locker that will fit into a space in the interior. Sadly will only hold campingaz small cylinders but I can cope with that. If it ok I’ll message you once I’ve received it to run through the installation 👍 thanks again. 

[truckcab79]

3 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

Thank you, helpful information. The BSS portal is rubbish unless I’m looking in the wrong place. 
 

I constructed the rear deck today with real success. It helps that I’ve got access to carbon fibre 😬 the deck extends 1140mm from the rear of the boat, maintains a rear structural railing c/w bench seat, s/steel integral out board engine mount (advise taken from local boat builder) as long as I get the right long shaft motor it should work as designed. 

Sounds like you know what you’re doing. Look forward to seeing some pics. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

I’m finding the BSS compliance and regulations difficult to define or even find on the government portals, I have however reached out today to my local inspector and he’s provided a good insight to where I need to be.

The Boat Safety Scheme is not a government agency, so you won't find it on the government portals. It was set up by several navigation authorities.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/

Private boat requirements here: https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/299451/bss-complete-ecps-private-boat-public-version-2023.pdf

 

Are you confusing the Boat Safety Scheme with the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR)? The post Brexit replacement of and identical with the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD). The RCR are statutory. This covers boats built after 1997 and major modifications to them, which may apply to your boat, depending on its age.