Nationwide appeal for volunteers to join help the charity preserve and protect the canal network

[Guest]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

This seems an odd post. Of course I am posting my own opinion, and anyone’s opinion tends to be biased by their relevant lived experience. It should be taken as seriously as anyone else’s opinion. I suggest that opinions based on first hand lived experience are more valid than opinions based on “something I read on the internet”.

 

But how does your couple of bad experiences stack up against the hundreds of good and positive interactions we never hear about?

 

Its pretty well known that people tend to complain about a bad service  experience but hold back on saying when things go simply as they should.

[magnetman]

I've had more positive experiences with volunteer lock keepers on the canals than negative experiences but I still disagree with it.

Even if they came up to boaters in joyful moods with honey and roses and free bottles of cold beer* I would disagree with it, on principle. 

 

*I suppose there might be some room for compromise in certain situations. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by magnetman

[jonathanA]

I don't think there are many vol lockies on the L&L so might not be a bad thing if CRT can encourage a few. But agree they need to assist not take over. The only one I met a few years ago was at barrowford and he was happy painting white lines everywhere and wasn't interested in operating locks. 

I think the volunteers on the Wigan flight are folks who just turn up, not sure they are official volockis but some will correct me  if I'm wrong.

 

As to the cost managing volunteers i guess that depends on many factors and what value is put on the work they do. How much is a (saved) lock full of water worth?

 

[magnetman]

The painting thing is a worry. I saw a volunteer geyser a few years on the Grand Union engaged in ensuring the balance beams and the lock bollards were painted in black and had no irritating white bits on them. He seemed quite pleased to be correcting a previously unrecognised problem. 

 

It must be rare but it can happen that people have no idea whatsoever. 

The insurance companies covering CRT for personal injury to users must be interested in competence of staff. 

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The insurance companies covering CRT for personal injury to users must be interested in competence of staff. 

 

And C&RTs employee accident rate increased last year (are volunteers classed as employees ?)

 

 

Number of reported incidents involving employees

The numbers of injuries for the year ended 31 March 2022. 129 (2021: 111) total employee recorded injuries of which 13 (2021: 7) were HSE Riddor reportable, 10 were “over 7 day” absences (2021: 6), 2 were major Injury (2021: 1) and 1 Death (2021: 0).

 

I'm guessing that the one death was when a 'licence checker' was stabbed to death by a boater.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Pluto]

One problem is that there are a limited number of people today who will volunteer, and the number may be declining after covid, though the government's realisation that using volunteers will keep taxes down may also be affecting the supply. Should essential services be run by unpaid volunteers? The L&LC Society have certainly found it more difficult to get people to volunteer on Kennet, particularly when it comes to opening up for the public. Most of our volunteers are reaching an age when their health requires them to slow down, and it is a worry for us about how we can encourage new younger (in their 50s or 60s) volunteers. In some ways, we cannot compete with CRT who can offer expenses and food, and it is making the future for our heritage boat uncertain. Over the past 25 years, the L&LC Society has had a positive effect on revealing canal heritage to local people, as well as having looked after Kennet for over ten years, bringing her back to good condition after she was allowed to decay somewhat by BW. We need younger volunteers to continue our success, a problem shared with many small voluntary groups today.

[Lady M]

As fewer people are able to retire early, there simply won't be as many younger people available to volunteer. 

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, Lady C said:

As fewer people are able to retire early, there simply won't be as many younger people available to volunteer. 

Although we are told that post covid there are significantly more 'economicly inactive' people below state retirement age than before. Which should mean that in the short term at least there are more non-working 50 and 60 somethings available to volunteer.

[Tony Brooks]

39 minutes ago, Pluto said:

One problem is that there are a limited number of people today who will volunteer, and the number may be declining after covid, though the government's realisation that using volunteers will keep taxes down may also be affecting the supply. Should essential services be run by unpaid volunteers?

 

I think that you may well be onto something there. If someone is enjoying their job, they will not retire at 50 or 60 unless ill health forces them to, so the fact that they have rather suggests to me that they probably feel they have badly treated at work in some way. Then there is the potential hassle that volunteering can bring with it. Examples - equality and safeguarding training and CRB checks. The question is posed, why volunteer when you can see that you are supporting high waged executives or just saving money for the people who really should be spending it - like the government & local authorities.

 

The "there is no such thing as society" quote may well be coming back to bite with a vengeance.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

This seems an odd post. Of course I am posting my own opinion, and anyone’s opinion tends to be biased by their relevant lived experience. It should be taken as seriously as anyone else’s opinion. I suggest that opinions based on first hand lived experience are more valid than opinions based on “something I read on the internet”.

I must say that from my experience things have improved a bit over the past few years, maybe the dumb dumbs have given up. I find a lot of them are also boaters now who don't seem to do much boating.

[magnetman]

Perhaps they are boaters who don't do much boating because they got fed up with volunteers and didn't even realise that was why they stopped boating. 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

I don't think there are many vol lockies on the L&L so might not be a bad thing if CRT can encourage a few. But agree they need to assist not take over. The only one I met a few years ago was at barrowford and he was happy painting white lines everywhere and wasn't interested in operating locks. 

 

 

The one I met there set ahead for me going up, so the water from the went round the bywash and not into the lock I was about to fill

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Although we are told that post covid there are significantly more 'economicly inactive' people below state retirement age than before. Which should mean that in the short term at least there are more non-working 50 and 60 somethings available to volunteer.

I was one of them pre covid, but I didn't volunteer, I went boating

[rusty69]

Well, I'm all for more volunteer lock keepers. In fact, I would be happy for all locks to be operated by someone else. The next logical progression will be to couple this with a self propelled boat that can be operated from the comfort of your own home. I intend to fit our boat out like this and hand it over to a 12 year old drone operator whilst I watch the boats progress along the waterways.

 

The best bit being, I won't even need to be on the boat for health and safety reasons.

[magnetman]

In similar vein I have been seriously considering getting a riderless motorcycle.

There are some very good VR systems around these days and 5G.

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

In similar vein I have been seriously considering getting a riderless motorcycle.

There are some very good VR systems around these days and 5G.

You will also need a robot dog to stop it being stolen. I intend to have two robot dogs on the boat, Bow and stern to keep an eye on the volunteer lock keepers and prevent the boat being stolen.

 

You need to think these things through.

Edited January 26, 2023 by rusty69

[Mad Harold]

3 hours ago, Grassman said:

 

Including dumbing down on this thread with Americanisms  such as 'math'  and 'trash' being used 😀.

 

 

I agree. The Americanism that annoys me is the middle finger salute.

The proper British salute is two fingers knuckles outward.  😛

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

But how does your couple of bad experiences stack up against the hundreds of good and positive interactions we never hear about?

 

Its pretty well known that people tend to complain about a bad service  experience but hold back on saying when things go simply as they should.

More than a couple. But like everyone else, plenty of good and positive interactions too (although none that we actually needed). That is the point, there is no consistency. On seeing the blue shirts and life jackets, you have no idea whether it is going to be a helpful person who know what they are doing, a control freak who wants to take charge, the mansplainer who has to tell you that in his weeks of experience, you are doing it wrong and or dish out unwanted backseat driving instructions. 

[cuthound]

5 hours ago, Grassman said:

 

Including dumbing down on this thread with Americanisms  such as 'math'  and 'trash' being used 😀.

 

 

 

The government encourages dumbing down, so it can claim a victory by levelling us back up to where we were...

 

[Arthur Marshall]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

More than a couple. But like everyone else, plenty of good and positive interactions too (although none that we actually needed). That is the point, there is no consistency. On seeing the blue shirts and life jackets, you have no idea whether it is going to be a helpful person who know what they are doing, a control freak who wants to take charge, the mansplainer who has to tell you that in his weeks of experience, you are doing it wrong and or dish out unwanted backseat driving instructions. 

I don't mind the ones who tell me I'm doing it all wrong. I usually just ask them how long they've been boating and that sorts it. Control freaks are more difficult, but you can deal with them politely - if they're doing stuff the way I want, fine  if they're not I mention it. The ones managing a flow of boats along a flight I tend to go along with what they want.

As I've said, I've never had a problem and personally, what with knees, hips and back getting progressively wonkier, I'm always glad to see them, as I suspect most singlehanders are. Mind you, I don't think I met a single one last year, except at one junction.

The soloist who went up Audlem a year or two back, who refused all help and worked so slowly he built up a big queue behind him, was a right pain in the posterior. We could have done with a jobsworth to work him through whether he liked it or not.

[Tom and Bex]

I used to welcome occasional volunteer help up lock flights. More recently though, I find myself planning my cruising to deliberately avoid times they might be there, and choosing routes I know rarely have them.

 

Last trip back from Birmingham, I wish I'd continued down Lapworth at midnight, rather than encounter volunteers "managing" the traffic the next morning.

 

My biggest issue isn't the help they provide through the locks, which at times can be welcome, it's the unnecessary delay they cause and the constant waiting around for boats to come up or down from several locks away because "it's difficult to pass in xxx pound". The last 4 times I've done Lapworth with volunteers on the flight, it's taken an hour or more longer (3 hours on one occasion!!!) than if I'd been single handed with no volunteers.

 

It's not as easy to just carry on and ignore their instructions when there's boats in front of you.

[matty40s]

2 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

I used to welcome occasional volunteer help up lock flights. More recently though, I find myself planning my cruising to deliberately avoid times they might be there, and choosing routes I know rarely have them.

 

Last trip back from Birmingham, I wish I'd continued down Lapworth at midnight, rather than encounter volunteers "managing" the traffic the next morning.

 

My biggest issue isn't the help they provide through the locks, which at times can be welcome, it's the unnecessary delay they cause and the constant waiting around for boats to come up or down from several locks away because "it's difficult to pass in xxx pound". The last 4 times I've done Lapworth with volunteers on the flight, it's taken an hour or more longer (3 hours on one occasion!!!) than if I'd been single handed with no volunteers.

 

It's not as easy to just carry on and ignore their instructions when there's boats in front of you.

Ah, but you cant say all that because some think that its thousands of happy people VS Nicknorman

[Arthur Marshall]

5 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Ah, but you cant say all that because some think that its thousands of happy people VS Nicknorman

Of course I do most of my actual boating between 6 and 10 in the morning, so I'm probably parked and sitting on the back with a book by the time most of them arrive. They seem to do a fair bit of clearing rubbish out of if locks and bywashes these days, too, as well as some basic maintenance. I'd rather, like everyone, CRT had enough paid employees to do the job professionally, but those days are long gone, so I think we just have to put up with it, same as we do booking stuff online. I suspect without them we'd be in a worse mess than we are, and without the lure of playing with locks sometimes they just wouldn't be there at all.

[Grassman]

Several issues here I’d like to comment about

 

Lock volunteers – I boat around 1,000 miles a year and very rarely encounter a bossy ‘know it all’.

 

Supply – Generally most organisations are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit volunteers. People seem to have so many more interests and pursuits these days.

 

Cost – somebody mentioned the cost to CRT of using volunteers. They could of course do without the lockies, but the training costs must be minimal, they provide a ‘face’ to the public which must help in garnering support for them, and they carry out minor maintenance such as greasing the paddles, painting lock gates, litter picking etc.

 

With other volunteering it’s a case of cost versus value. I’m in a team who cut back the offside vegetation every winter. One of the reasons we do it is because all of us being boaters, we know it wouldn’t get done otherwise.

 

It costs CRT a lot in training (chainsaw and chipper etc every 5 years), equipment hire (which sometimes involves hiring a workboat or hopper boat as well as equipment), and provision of PPE. For that they get around 3,000 hours free labour each winter in return.

 

If you do the maths I think that despite the costs CRT do benefit from it and of course we boaters do as well.

 

[Mike Todd]

42 minutes ago, Grassman said:

Several issues here I’d like to comment about

 

Lock volunteers – I boat around 1,000 miles a year and very rarely encounter a bossy ‘know it all’.

 

Supply – Generally most organisations are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit volunteers. People seem to have so many more interests and pursuits these days.

 

Cost – somebody mentioned the cost to CRT of using volunteers. They could of course do without the lockies, but the training costs must be minimal, they provide a ‘face’ to the public which must help in garnering support for them, and they carry out minor maintenance such as greasing the paddles, painting lock gates, litter picking etc.

 

With other volunteering it’s a case of cost versus value. I’m in a team who cut back the offside vegetation every winter. One of the reasons we do it is because all of us being boaters, we know it wouldn’t get done otherwise.

 

It costs CRT a lot in training (chainsaw and chipper etc every 5 years), equipment hire (which sometimes involves hiring a workboat or hopper boat as well as equipment), and provision of PPE. For that they get around 3,000 hours free labour each winter in return.

 

If you do the maths I think that despite the costs CRT do benefit from it and of course we boaters do as well.

 

That is a great example of how volunteering can work well (albeit with occasional stand offs!). Of course it does cost and in an already cash-strapped organisation that is not easy. In particular, there is a challenge when this involves a task that has already not made the cut in budget setting and so can sometimes distort the priorities. (A classic example used to be people raising money for a high profile capital project tat had already been assessed as not sufficient value-for-money to justify and raising the running costs was never done, leaving the main organisation in a hole when longer5 term cost5s had to be met)

 

In the immediate post WW2 period, volunteering flourished as most mothers were expected to give up employment (especially if they were in jobs that had been vacated by men to be called up). Whilst child rearing is challenging and time consuming it did eave many with spare time and they were often above average capability (!).

 

In the 70's, with the introduced on equalities, most couples both worked and one consequence was that housing costs rose dramatically (with higher affordability) and so few women (specifically) were able to volunteer. 

 

This led, in the 80's and for the next 2 or 3 decades, to statutory authorities outsourcing the responsibilities by contracts to charitable orgs. All too frequently these were based on shortish fixed term contracts to meet the latest fashion in 'need' and often not renewed, leaving the 'contractor' with the onus of making staff redundant. Over time, many charities became wholly dependent on a flow of such contracts, but the uncertainty of employment longer term meant that they gradually could not attract the best5ter staff and when such approaches were used to meet time-critical services (such as transport) things started to fall apart.

 

We are now in a phase when public bodies have even less cash and they are caught because they an no longer even afford the money to employ a charity to do what they ought to doing in the first place. (Day centres, or similar, for disadvantaged people is a particular case).

 

I am not surprised that CaRT struggled in the first instance to expand rapidly there volly numbers (it is hard for any org at the best of times) and especially with no in house background of what has to be involved, in particular when volunteers still need to comply with the same legislative framework as employees (such as DBS, H&S etc)

 

In my experience, the scheme has improved dramatically since it first started (often badly) and we all know how long it can take to live down even the briefest of bad experience versus the length of time to build a positive reputation. My main critical observation at the present time is that it does not seem that CaRT have a clear concept of what they are trying to achieve trough the volly system and one does wonder how the KPI distorts what might otherwise be chosen. (eg would they be better promoting fewer but more competent volunteer-days as Grassman cited) They need to persuade the Govt to make a better KPI. (as well as a better budget that really includes adequate maintenance!)

 

There are precious few orgs that can survive entirely on volunteers (I belong to one that has had to accept at least a <5% employed element just to ensure proper compliance and effective direction) Without oversight, there can be a real danger from mavericks!

 

I fully anticipate that in the next decade volunteering will change yet again - but how, that is the question!

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Grassman said:

Several issues here I’d like to comment about

 

Lock volunteers – I boat around 1,000 miles a year and very rarely encounter a bossy ‘know it all’.

 

Supply – Generally most organisations are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit volunteers. People seem to have so many more interests and pursuits these days.

 

Cost – somebody mentioned the cost to CRT of using volunteers. They could of course do without the lockies, but the training costs must be minimal, they provide a ‘face’ to the public which must help in garnering support for them, and they carry out minor maintenance such as greasing the paddles, painting lock gates, litter picking etc.

 

With other volunteering it’s a case of cost versus value. I’m in a team who cut back the offside vegetation every winter. One of the reasons we do it is because all of us being boaters, we know it wouldn’t get done otherwise.

 

It costs CRT a lot in training (chainsaw and chipper etc every 5 years), equipment hire (which sometimes involves hiring a workboat or hopper boat as well as equipment), and provision of PPE. For that they get around 3,000 hours free labour each winter in return.

 

If you do the maths I think that despite the costs CRT do benefit from it and of course we boaters do as well.

 

All credit to you for volunteering with vegetation removal. Much appreciated, thank you.

 

Just thinking back to 2022 cruising, we did 2 main trips - the Leicester ring, and down the Thames to the Wey. The latter of course mostly off CRT waters.
Leicester ring we had a very annoying volockie on Foxton who started telling (shouting at) Jeff (who has been boating for 30 years) how to drive the boat. Lockies at Watford were very offhand on approach (barely any eye contact) but at least didn’t object when we said we liked to work the locks ourselves. There were a few gongoozlers around but the volockies stayed in a huddle and didn’t engage with them, apart from 1 volockie.

 

Hillmorton - mercifully unpopulated with volockies one of the times. The other time on approach to bottom lock, as a boat was 50% out of the lock going down, volockie nevertheless felt the need to wave and gesticulate frantically that we should approach same lock that was being vacated. A very minor irritation of course, but it demonstrates a need to be in control despite it being “stating the bleedin obvious”. I’d just rather not have the back seat driving.

 

Napton, a pleasant volockie who was quite happy when we said we preferred to operate the locks ourselves.

 

Claydon, mid way through a busy passage when everyone was “playing nicely” together, volockie decided to disrupt things by turning a lock in our favour as we approached despite a boat a few yards away coming opposite direction with elderly couple - who unsurprisingly, were not pleased. Same was going to happen at next lock until I intervened and told the other volockie not to turn the lock for us in the face of an upcoming boat - especially as there were already 3 boats in the next pound queuing to go our way. I asked nicely with explanation, he argued, I then told him, he got a bit shouty and then stormed off in a sulk. Turned out he was day 1 post training, which doesn’t say a lot for the training!

 

They like to keep these silly chalk scoreboards, I think the aim is to get as many ticks as possible regardless of whether they are assisting the overall flow or not.

 

Atherstone, we said we preferred to work the locks ourselves. Very nice chatty guy said no problem, but then proceeded to assist anyway, whilst telling us that they were only there to assist if required, not to take over. I had to laugh! At least he didn’t try to tell us how to do it.

 

On your point about the “face” of CRT, in our experience 50% are grumpy grey beardy old men who barely possess the power of speech, stare at their feet and certainly don’t engage with the public. A terrible face of CRT to gongoozlers. Of course some are chatty, friendly, welcoming, informative to gongoozlers. As I said earlier, there is massive inconsistency.

 

That was 2022, let’s see if 2023 is any better.

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by nicknorman