Calor discontinuing some of their range

[Jon57]

20 hours ago, Jon57 said:

When I got mine years ago there was no real customer service. Now I believe you have to register with them so they can keep updated records. Will email them to see what the procedure is.👍

Well the reply from safefill is they don’t do testing!! And advise I buy another bottle. So if you guys use a lot of gas it probably ok. If your a low user then maybe not. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The pressure in the two bottles will be the same. But if the bottles are at the same temperature then the vapour pressure in each will also be the same, and there will be no transfer of gas (or liquid) between the two bottles, which will happily coexist with different amounts of liquid.

 

This was/is my thinking too.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, BWM said:

 The space is needed to allow the liquid to vapourise into a useable substance as the liquid would be unsuitable for appliances and have no pressure. 

Also for the liquid to expand if it gets warm, if it was 100% full and warmed up a bit it would overpressure

[magnetman]

16 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Also for the liquid to expand if it gets warm, if it was 100% full and warmed up a bit it would overpressure

What happens if the pressure gets too high? Presumably there is a one time blow off valve of some sort. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

What happens if the pressure gets too high? Presumably there is a one time blow off valve of some sort. 

 

 

That I dont know, but a vessel full of liquid can build I high pressure very quickly when it warms up. I have seen a 1500psi relief valve blow off when the sun has come out on a flow line that in the morning was at atmospheric pressure

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

What happens if the pressure gets too high? Presumably there is a one time blow off valve of some sort. 

 

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

I'm happy to be moving towards the solar power/lithium batteries model of onboard cooking during summer. 

 

For now it is the wood burner. These have a habit of not exploding very badly and causing untold injuries. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Well, just to finish off the story, I now have confirmation that their POL-POL pigtail does not have a nn return valve either.

 

 

Thanks Alan

No - our POL to POL do not - the ones for changeover valves do tend to but we are not doing those now.

Best wishes

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Well, just to finish off the story, I now have confirmation that their POL-POL pigtail does not have a nn return valve either.

 

 

Thanks Alan

No - our POL to POL do not - the ones for changeover valves do tend to but we are not doing those now.

Best wishes

I loved Michael Palin in POL to POL 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Well, just to finish off the story, I now have confirmation that their POL-POL pigtail does not have a nn return valve either.

 

 

Thanks Alan

No - our POL to POL do not - the ones for changeover valves do tend to but we are not doing those now.

Best wishes

 

But is one actually needed if connecting two cylinders to then connect to a single regulator and take off?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by M_JG

[Tacet]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

The pressure in the two bottles will be the same. But if the bottles are at the same temperature then the vapour pressure in each will also be the same, and there will be no transfer of gas (or liquid) between the two bottles, which will happily coexist with different amounts of liquid.

That makes sense to me.  And even if a bottle is in the sun, the pressure of the gas will not rise due to the expansion of the liquid element, as the gas will liquify under pressure.

 

Even so, vapour pressure of the gas does change according to temperature

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html

but with open connections it will be the same in both cylinders.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

But is one actually needed if connecting two cylinders to then connect to a single regulator and take off?

 

 

 

 

 

No, and neither is it needed to refill an empty from a full cylinder.

 

The question was asked by MtB "So, how does the team recommend filling 3.9kg propane cylinders "

 

The answer was given

The method was explained

The equipment needed was identified and several suppliers of suitable equipment were given

 

Confirmation was received that there is not a NRV in the line.

 

It can be successfully done. I have done it.

 

I think the question has been answered, I have nothing else to add.

 

Fin.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No, and neither is it needed to refill an empty from a full cylinder.

 

The question was asked by MtB "So, how does the team recommend filling 3.9kg propane cylinders "

 

The answer was given

The method was explained

The equipment needed was identified and several suppliers of suitable equipment were given

 

Confirmation was received that there is not a NRV in the line.

 

It can be successfully done. I have done it.

 

I think the question has been answered, I have nothing else to add.

 

Fin.

 

You suggested that Calor were wrong to supply a pol to pol pigtail as that is contradictory to their policy regarding cylinder re fill.

 

Its now been established that actually their is an alternative use for them, so in fact Calor selling them is perfectly reasonable.

 

Of course the fact they can actually be used for cylinder refill is not really anything to do with Calor.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by M_JG

[BWM]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Having a static caravan site where it is common to have banks of 2 to 4 x 47kg cylinders I can assure you that they are not used to connect banks together,

 

The hoses under discussion are POL fitting at both ends - so if you connect 2 cylinders together there is nowhere for the gas to 'go'.

 

The hose used to connect 'banks' of cylinders into the multiway regulator have a POL fitting on one end and a totally different fitting on the other end.

 

Example of the 2-way changeover valve

 

 

 

And the 4-way kit to produce 'banks' :

 

 

Calor Essentials 4 Cylinder OPSO Upgrade Kit | Changeover Valves & Accessories | Calor Gas Appliances

 

 

I've delivered and connected hundreds of those cylinders, so i am entirely familiar with the set ups i described. The outer pair away from the regulator on either side would normally be connected in this way with the pigtail between the inner cylinder and regulator having the connections in your picture. 

[Paul C]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

What happens if the pressure gets too high? Presumably there is a one time blow off valve of some sort. 

 

 

 

The valve on the bottle has a pressure relief function, at 26 bar for propane. If the bottle is in a compliant gas bottle locker, it would safely dissipate when it opens.

 

http://www.adamsgas.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/1-Introduction-to-Calor-Cylinders-Valves-Regulators-Hoses-Safety-Devices-1of3.pdf (page 5)

Edited January 23, 2023 by Paul C

[Bee]

My head hurts, all this talk of pressure differences and stuff. So, silly question. If I connect a fullish bottle to an empty one then upend the full one to pour the liquid gas into the empty one until it weighs the correct weight will I have a nice full bottle? Or will the whole thing go bang?

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

My head hurts, all this talk of pressure differences and stuff. So, silly question. If I connect a fullish bottle to an empty one then upend the full one to pour the liquid gas into the empty one until it weighs the correct weight will I have a nice full bottle? Or will the whole thing go bang?

Only if the full one is higher

[Bee]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Only if the full one is higher

Thanks, that seems to be the answer I wanted. I don't want to end up a smouldering lump of charcoal on the roof.

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

My head hurts, all this talk of pressure differences and stuff. So, silly question. If I connect a fullish bottle to an empty one then upend the full one to pour the liquid gas into the empty one until it weighs the correct weight will I have a nice full bottle? Or will the whole thing go bang?

 

If you know the correct weight, then you would have a "nice full" (as in not overfull) bottle. It won't go bang but it may leak some vapour/liquid during the disconnecting after you've done the transfer (so it needs to be done in a well ventilated area with no ignition sources). If you didn't know the weight, or thought you knew it but were wrong, the bottle may become overfull then if/when it heats up, it could put liquid through your gas lines and into your appliances (and thus, into the boat). And it could 'blow' the pressure relief function and discharge flammable liquid/vapour into the gas locker, which should over time dissipate to the wider environment.

[Bee]

Thanks, sounds possible but great care is required.

[Paul C]

The main danger, is that its a boat. Its designed to be watertight. You don't want a gas leak (or an LPG leak) in a boat.

 

A gas leak in a house is a relatively minor inconvenience, you can open doors and windows and there's generally enough space to ventilate it well; and there's a big valve near the meter which is easy to shut off. And a telephone line to call, who will come and help quite quickly.

[David Mack]

43 minutes ago, Bee said:

My head hurts, all this talk of pressure differences and stuff. So, silly question. If I connect a fullish bottle to an empty one then upend the full one to pour the liquid gas into the empty one until it weighs the correct weight will I have a nice full bottle? Or will the whole thing go bang?

If you are buying a bottle you want to be confident it is full to the designated quantity. But if you are filling your own from a larger bottle it doesn't really matter if you don't fill it up to the designated weight. So better to err on the low side when self filling.

[DandV]

4 hours ago, magnetman said:

What happens if the pressure gets too high? Presumably there is a one time blow off valve of some sort. 

 

 

Not a  valve that would reset once the over pressure was released, but a bursting disk, that will release the entire contents of the tank, but in a slightly  more favourable way then the alternative of an explosive release.

Don't go go anywhere near there. 

[DandV]

9 minutes ago, DandV said:

Not a  valve that would reset once the over pressure was released, but a bursting disk, that will release the entire contents of the tank, but in a slightly  more favourable way then the alternative of an explosive release.

Don't go go anywhere near there. 

It appears my answer may not always be right. Some bottles do have a pressure relief valve built into the main valve that does reset. 

[DandV]

5 hours ago, David Mack said:

The pressure in the two bottles will be the same. But if the bottles are at the same temperature then the vapour pressure in each will also be the same, and there will be no transfer of gas (or liquid) between the two bottles, which will happily coexist with different amounts of liquid.

You can decant fill between bottles using gravity. It is slow as the descending liquid has to make way for the ascending gas to splutter past.

 

It is vital that you know the safe filled weight 80% of capacity of the receiving bottle and have the means to determine this.  And do it. A fully hydrauliced bottle is dangerous. 

The space above is to allow for the thermal expansion of the propane, (it has a high coefficient of expansion) and the large temperature range bottles in the sun can be subjected to.