Calor discontinuing some of their range

[Ronaldo47]

I use a 4.5 kg calor gas cylinder for a twin-burner camping hotplate. As I happened to be passing a local shop that sells camping gear late this afternoon, I popped in and established that they have two in stock. As I didn't have my empty one with me,  I reserved one and will collect it tomorrow.  The owner said they had been difficult to get hold of, but was unaware that they are effectively being withdrawn.

[Paul C]

9 hours ago, rusty69 said:

When I sell my boat, do I need to remove the gas bottles and return them to calor? 

 

Asking for magnetman. 

 

Yes, effectively, but nobody does it and its a kinda zero-sum 'infringement' if a boat/caravan is sold with the cylinder, then the new owner carries on using the cylinder in the normal way. So I don't think Calor pursue owners when this happens - why would they?

 

Here are the T&Cs you agreed to:

 

3. Cylinders remain the property of the Company at all times and may only be filled by the Company

The company makes the cylinder(s) available to the user as a means of safely transporting and storing the gas supplied. This agreement is not a rental agreement and it does not provide the user with title in the cylinder. The user will not part with possession or control of the cylinder(s) (other than to a CALOR outlet) nor claim to have any rights that conflict with this agreement, nor create or purport or attempt to create any agency or bailment in relation to the cylinder(s) or to the user’s obligations.

4. Use of Cylinders

Cylinders may be used only as a container for Gas and not be sold, exchanged (other than for the Purpose of the Agreement), hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged, lent, abandoned, nor damaged, decanted, filled or tampered with.

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/terms-and-conditions

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Yes, effectively, but nobody does it and its a kinda zero-sum 'infringement' if a boat/caravan is sold with the cylinder, then the new owner carries on using the cylinder in the normal way. So I don't think Calor pursue owners when this happens - why would they?

 

Here are the T&Cs you agreed to:

 

3. Cylinders remain the property of the Company at all times and may only be filled by the Company

The company makes the cylinder(s) available to the user as a means of safely transporting and storing the gas supplied. This agreement is not a rental agreement and it does not provide the user with title in the cylinder. The user will not part with possession or control of the cylinder(s) (other than to a CALOR outlet) nor claim to have any rights that conflict with this agreement, nor create or purport or attempt to create any agency or bailment in relation to the cylinder(s) or to the user’s obligations.

4. Use of Cylinders

Cylinders may be used only as a container for Gas and not be sold, exchanged (other than for the Purpose of the Agreement), hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged, lent, abandoned, nor damaged, decanted, filled or tampered with.

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/terms-and-conditions

Thanks. 

 

I didn't actually agree to the terms and conditions, as the bottles came with the boat. Presumably someone somewhere in the way distant past signed an agreement with Calor, but it wasn't me. 

[Paul C]

Yeah only the first owner of the bottle could be pursued for breaking the T&Cs. And I doubt if any of their suppliers/shops want to enforce it, so the possibility of you trying to exchange an empty for a full and being declined, are negligible.

 

Maybe that's part of the problem - that there's so many bottles go "missing", in addition to the ones Calor withdraw because they're unsafe or just too grotty, its not worth doing the 3.9s any more?

[Bee]

I've got some in my shed. If somebody nicks them they have stolen them from me. 

[rusty69]

Just now, Bee said:

I've got some in my shed. If somebody nicks them they have stolen them from me. 

They may have stolen them from your shed, but do they belong to you? 

[Momac]

10 hours ago, rusty69 said:

When I sell my boat, do I need to remove the gas bottles and return them to calor? 

No . 

[magnetman]

Yes

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Yes

 

Why?

 

Or are you just being contrary for the sake of it?

Edited January 26, 2023 by M_JG

[magnetman]

 

4. Use of Cylinders

Cylinders may be used only as a container for Gas and not be sold, exchanged (other than for the Purpose of the Agreement), hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged, lent, abandoned, nor damaged, decanted, filled or tampered with.

 

--------

 

When you sell the boat it is transferred. This is not allowed to happen with the gas bottles apparently. 

 

ETA I should add I thought rusty just said remove the bottles. I don't think he will have to return them to Calor but they will need to be removed per the agreement. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by magnetman

[Guest]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

4. Use of Cylinders

Cylinders may be used only as a container for Gas and not be sold, exchanged (other than for the Purpose of the Agreement), hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged, lent, abandoned, nor damaged, decanted, filled or tampered with.

 

--------

 

When you sell the boat it is transferred. This is not allowed to happen with the gas bottles apparently. 

 

Meanwhile in the real world..

[magnetman]

I know that. I doubt any of that nonsense is enforceable but on their website they suggest some previous case law. It seems improbable this involves people selling boats and leaving the gas bottles on them though to be fair !

[rusty69]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

No . 

When I return them, am I allowed to remove the gas into a different cylinder? Afterall, I did pay for it. 

[Ronaldo47]

I would think that the T&C's have been drawn up to prevent any third parties from re-labelling and selling their own  gas in Calor Gas bottles. 

 

I remember that, while  the original Sodastream fizzy drink maker empty bottles could be exchanged for full ones at a discount, their terms of purchase in the 1980's were such that there was outright sale, meaning that the bottles became the absolute property of the purchaser. When a third party company started selling compatible refills, it accepted genuine Sodastream bottles in part exchange, re-painted them a different colour, and applied its own trade marks over the Sodastream markings. Sodastream took them to court, but lost. 

 

Because the court held there was outright sale of the gas bottles,  the purchasers and anyone else could do what they liked with them, and by re-painting and obliterating the Sodastream trade marks, the third party was quite legitimately merely ensuring that there was no question of passing-off their products as Sodastream ones. I remember the case well, as the decision was published in the Law Reports  at the time I was studying for professional qualifications that included an exam paper on Trade Marks.

 

Sodastream subsequently changed their T&Cs to something like the present Calor Gas ones. 

 

  

Edited January 26, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Momac]

22 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

When I return them, am I allowed to remove the gas into a different cylinder? Afterall, I did pay for it. 

Why return them?  

If you want the gas you may as  well keep the cylinders.

But I would say it's  a bit unreasonable not to leave one cylinder with the boat with some gas in it.

 

[magnetman]

What do you do with the empty cylinders once the gas has run out and refills are no longer offered? 

 

 

Maybe cut a hole in the bottom with a holesaw and fill it with old scrap iron nuts and bolts and concrete. Handy mud anchor? 

Use water to lubricate the holesaw and you will get no sparks. 

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Why return them?  

If you want the gas you may as  well keep the cylinders.

But I would say it's  a bit unreasonable not to leave one cylinder with the boat with some gas in it.

 

Because someone suggested the cylinders don't belong to me. Presumably the gas does though, so if I had a use for that gas, albeit in a smaller package, it seems reasonable, to me anyway, that I take it with me. 

[magnetman]

Maybe you could transfer it from a calor to a non calor cylinder but not from a calor to a calor. 

 

Or burn it using a cooking device. 

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Because someone suggested the cylinders don't belong to me. Presumably the gas does though, so if I had a use for that gas, albeit in a smaller package, it seems reasonable, to me anyway, that I take it with me. 

Or maybe they do belong to me. Afterall, they were on the boat, and I paid for that, and it's contents. 

Just now, rusty69 said:

Or maybe they do belong to me. Afterall, they were on the boat, and I paid for that, and it's contents. 

I have started quoting my own posts now. I feel I get a better class of answer that way. 

[magnetman]

The precious owner of the boat (note NOT the bottles) was not allowed to sell, mortgage, hire or transfer them to you so it is impossible for you to own them. 

 

Calor own the bottles. You might be able to ring them up and offer them a tenner. That might work. 

[Paul C]

You can't have bought it because the seller can't have sold it, because it wasn't his/hers to sell. Its still Calor's bottle, and always was.

[rusty69]

Just now, magnetman said:

The precious owner of the boat (note NOT the bottles) was not allowed to sell, mortgage, hire or transfer them to you so it is impossible for you to own them. 

 

Calor own the bottles. You might be able to ring them up and offer them a tenner. That might work. 

But what if the previous owner didn't own them either. Its possible I signed an agreement years ago, and I was in fact buying back my own bottle (agreement) . 

[magnetman]

 

One can see the logic here. If someone piled 500 calor bottles onto the boat it might increase the value of the boat if the idea was that you could sell the bottles with the boat. 

 

You can't so it doesn't. 

 

It is actually all rather sensible and logical. If the customer owned the bottle you would get hoarding. 

 

We have had hoarding happening anyway so maybe it didn't work all that well. People will have containers full of these things on ten year investment plans. 

Just now, rusty69 said:

But what if the previous owner didn't own them either. Its possible I signed an agreement years ago, and I was in fact buying back my own bottle (agreement) . 

You would have to produce/forge the paperwork. 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

You can't have bought it because the seller can't have sold it, because it wasn't his/hers to sell. Its still Calor's bottle, and always was.

What about the gas though, who owns that? 

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

What about the gas though, who owns that? 

You do, and nobody is preventing you from using it for the purpose of creating flames and doing burny burny activities or running catalytic heaters. 

 

I had catalytic heaters once they were quite good actually.