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Thames - Water Points. Changes to drinking and bulk water supply points.


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1 hour ago, pearley said:

  Not sure about not letting the hose drag on gravel or lay in puddles at your average CRT water point but the rest is what we already do. I guess we could all keep our hoses in the air whilst filling. Certainly slow down the cyclists.

One of the reasons I don't want a lay flat hose, if you stop by the waterpoint it has to run 20 feet along the towpath and back to be used.

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2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

One of the reasons I don't want a lay flat hose, if you stop by the waterpoint it has to run 20 feet along the towpath and back to be used.

 

Not if it's only 7ft long. Any hose can be any length. 

 

I carry a variety of hoses both flat and round in various lengths 

 

The waterpoint at my mooing is about 60 yards away. I wouldn't have the space to carry that much rigid round hose.

Edited by blackrose
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2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Not if it's only 7ft long. Any hose can be any length. 

 

I carry a variety of hoses both flat and round in various lengths 

 

The waterpoint at my mooing is about 60 yards away. I wouldn't have the space to carry that much rigid round hose.

I have never seen a 7 foot lay flat hose.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 24/03/2021 at 15:50, Paringa said:

Not seen one yet myself to confirm, but this is believed to be the wee beastie...

 

Pipe Interrupters Type DC257 - Arrow Valves

 

DN20F. The link above has a couple of installation and use docs if you are interested.

 

 

dsc09303_2_1.png


Hello - my first post here, as a Dutch barge user on the Thames who has just found out about this change. A couple of things:

 

The valve above seems to discharge water with any back pressure at all - I don’t think there’s any valve in it as such. It says unless the hose is less than 2’ long, and unless the end is below the tap, it will discharge from the holes. So I hope they haven’t fitted these! I reckon it’s more likely to be a RPZ (reduced pressure zone) device which is a bit more complex, but will only discharge with a certain amount of back pressure. 
 

Second, I’ve found some lightweight, food grade hose with 20mm internal diameter, compared to the 1/2” of standard garden type hose. By my reckoning, a 20m length of this will still create less than half the back pressure of 7m of normal hose. It will fill up my bow-locker more, but I’m thinking it might be worth it if it works. 
 


 

 

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On 09/04/2021 at 18:56, ditchcrawler said:

I have never seen a 7 foot lay flat hose.

 

I have one. It started out as 20 metres of course, but as time's gone by I have cut off more and more leaky bits caused by people/bikes/vehicles going over it on rough surfaces...

 

Ed: Actually thinking about it it is probably more like 12-15 feet.

 

It is still occasionally useful, but I also have other longer hoses too for other situations.

Edited by alias
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About time too!  It has taken too long to get these safety measures into place, to save the many thousands of lives that are going to be lost over eons if we don't.  But I think we ought to be issued with free teaspoons to take the water from the taps to our tanks, I don't see why we should have to provide our own?  

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On 24/03/2021 at 15:50, Paringa said:

Not seen one yet myself to confirm, but this is believed to be the wee beastie...

 

Pipe Interrupters Type DC257 - Arrow Valves

 

DN20F. The link above has a couple of installation and use docs if you are interested.

 

 

dsc09303_2_1.png

 Having recently passed through part of the non tidal thames i can confirm that this is indeed the type of tap connector they have fitted.

It would appear to severely restrict the flow and also sprays (aka wastes) water with any type of regular hose fitted to it. 7m is a bit of guesswork as a 5m one with a kink might be even worse.

 

Removing or tampering with the fitting could amount to criminal damage, but....

 

@Tony Brooks I can also confirm that the use of a short section of 19mm ID hose and Jubilee clip solves the issue, as does the innertube idea too.

 

 

 

Edited by MarkH2159
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1 hour ago, Thames Bhaji said:

 

The valve above seems to discharge water with any back pressure at all - I don’t think there’s any valve in it as such. It says unless the hose is less than 2’ long, and unless the end is below the tap, it will discharge from the holes.

 

But it's fine if you just want to fill your Buckby can under the tap!

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33 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

Having recently passed through part of the non tidal thames i can confirm that this is indeed the type of tap connector they have fitted.


Thanks for confirming. In my case, my filler is up on the bow and higher (I think) than most taps. In which case I’m guessing I will get zero water. 
 

I’m now thinking of a bucket under the tap with an automatic bilge pump in it, pushing water up the hose to my tank filler. That or a tea spoon. 

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Hope they don't introduce them on the Great Ouse, although most of the taps on the Bedford bit are provided by the Local Authority.

 

If they insist that 7 metres is the longest hose then it will make Great Barford unusable except for water carriers.

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28 minutes ago, pearley said:

Hope they don't introduce them on the Great Ouse, although most of the taps on the Bedford bit are provided by the Local Authority.

 

 

 

Anyone providing water via a standpipe / tap must comply with the regulations so, they wil be coming to a tap near you !

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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Anyone providing water via a standpipe / tap must comply with the regulations so, they wil be coming to a tap near you !

But surely the regulation is complied with by the double check valve.

 

https://www.arrowvalves.co.uk/pipe-interrupters-type-dc257

This type of fitting is overkill.

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Interesting to note that the later Government leaflet dated April 2021 linked in the earier notice dated March 2021 of the first post, lists a number of locks which have hoses for bulk supply as well as taps. Right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing, or  change of heart? 

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/river-thames-locks-and-facilities-for-boaters

 

for example

 

Screenshot_2021-04-26-01-03-09.png.8d0a523cd4bdbe7ba1841bb26bceb014.png

Edited by Ronaldo47
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On 22/04/2021 at 12:04, Thames Bhaji said:


Thanks for confirming. In my case, my filler is up on the bow and higher (I think) than most taps. In which case I’m guessing I will get zero water. 
 

I’m now thinking of a bucket under the tap with an automatic bilge pump in it, pushing water up the hose to my tank filler. That or a tea spoon. 

I seem to remember a stirrup pump was issued to volunteer firefighters in WW2, good exercise for the crew, and none of that dangerous electrickery involved. 

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10 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Interesting to note that the later Government leaflet dated April 2021 linked in the earier notice dated March 2021 of the first post, lists a number of locks which have hoses for bulk supply as well as taps. Right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing, or  change of heart? 

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/river-thames-locks-and-facilities-for-boaters

 

for example

 

Screenshot_2021-04-26-01-03-09.png.8d0a523cd4bdbe7ba1841bb26bceb014.png

Government publications about the Thames are invariably out of date.

As reported (complained about) elsewhere ALL the water points AND the hydrant type facilities have bee replaced by (stupid) garden hose fittings. The hydrant hoses have been removed.

 

The small water taps fitted on many locks were never intended to be used as bulk water feeds but more for cans / kettles / w.h.y. Methinks the shouldn't have been replaced with hose fittings....

 

However the cabined based hydrant fitings were always intended as bulk supplies, thus it's a shame that they have been emasculated by fitting garden hose type equipment. But there you are..

EA Thames management have been replaced in recent years by box tickers with no real knowledge of how the River works, those lockies who knew anything are reaching retirement or have already retired - theus a pool of knowledge is drying up.

 

Boaters from the canal system come on to the River in the depths of winter when lock staff are reduced / on holiday and then whinge about unpleasant it is.

looky here:-

Taylors Aboard No. 39 - "After 5 Horrific Months On The Thames We Finally Made It To A Canal!"

 

They did nothing about preparing their boat for cruising on a fast flowing river and in the winter off season. Their warps were too short and poor quality and size. I suspect they weren't even licenced.

 

Edited by OldGoat
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  • 2 weeks later...

I first experienced one of these new taps/valves yesterday - they are not good, and the lockies don't like them at all because of the queues and general disruption. This is what I posted to the EA Facebook group. https://www.facebook.com/Environment-Agency-River-Thames-Waterways-Team-143716172886829
 

Today I filled up (around 400 litres) at Cleeve Lock. The old hose would have filled my tank in 6 or 7 minutes, but with the new tap it took 45 minutes. Another narrowboat arrived, requiring around 600 litres so that would have taken over an hour. This is in the quiet, early part of the season. During the schools' half-term week (commencing 29 May) and summer holidays I foresee long queues, frustration and anger. All that will lead to increased risks and potential safety incidents.
No Thames water points have sufficient space for up to 10 boats to queue for 3 or 4 hours. That is the reality of the effect of these new taps. Environment Agency River Thames Waterways Team - I can't see that you have responded to any of these comments. Feedback from lockkeepers is universally negative. Low pressure, long queues, no space. I realise that you must comply with legislation, but there are better solutions than these taps. Please let us all know what you intend to do to remedy this issue.

  

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18 minutes ago, Mike on the Wey said:

I foresee long queues, frustration and anger. All that will lead to increased risks and potential safety incidents.


Me too. What about a petition to show EA how many experienced boaters predict real problems ahead?

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If I were a suspicious individual I would think that the real reason was to reduce their water bill by encouraging boaters to use private boatyards where they could pay for a quick fill-up. 

 

The acceptable installations for bulk filling shown in appendix 6 of the ISCG and said to be compliant with the actual regulations rather than EA's new  interpretation of them,  only show standard taps with conventional threaded hose union fittings and double check valves. There seems to be no indication in the EA notice that the regulations per se have been changed. 

 

Screenshot_2021-04-26-23-05-46.png.d59c2e25490a77c4ebffef0f26c2f50e.png

 

 

Screenshot_2021-04-26-23-03-58.png.c38ed64edb435361236e1e63108cd265.png

 

The guidance does say that, where a hose is provided, the provider is responsible for ensuring it is hygenic, so removng  hoses from unsupervised taps is perhaps understandable. 

 

My recollection from fluid mechanics lectures many decades ago is that the non-turbulent  flow resistance in a round pipe is inversely proportional to the fourth power of the diameter, so it is not surprising that the very small orifice that is provided to produce a high velocity jet that forces  water downstream of the restrictor by its momentum, results in a great reduction in flow rate.  The diameter of this orifice will be what limits flow rate, so even if a large diameter hose were provided downstream of the restrictor, it would not make filling faster. The new fittings are clearly neither suitable for , nor intended, for bulk filling.  

Edited by Ronaldo47
typos
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I have asked EA how they equate all the extra plastic with "Environment" and received a reply yesterday

 

from me

 

Quote

Dear Sirs,

 

In regard to the attached email from yourselves.

 

There are approximately 15,000 boats registered for use on the upper Thames, if each one now has to carry its own, special, 7m hose, in addition to the cost to boaters (c £225,000), that creates a requirement for an additional 105km of plastic hose (mostly to be used once or twice a year). Can somebody please tell me in what way does that put "environment" in "Environment Agency"?

 

Thanks and regards

 

Bacchus

 

 

Their response

Quote

Dear Bacchus,

 

Thank you for your email dated 22 April 2021 regarding our recent guidance note on changes to drinking and bulk water supply at our lock sites.

 

I am grateful to you for providing me with feedback on this important issue, which I will use to review how we can further adapt our water supply service to be safe for our customers.

 

We took action to remove any water hygiene risks associated to our water supply following a recent review of this service to maintain compliance with the Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999. As you mentioned part of this action now requires users to provide their own hose pipe so I do take your point however any hoses used should be of ‘food grade’ quality suitable for fresh water which are usually made from plastic. The health, safety and wellbeing of our customers and staff remains our highest priority and outweighs other considerations.

 

Kind regards,

EA lady

Business Team Leader | Thames Waterways

 

"The health, safety and wellbeing of our customers and staff remains our highest priority and outweighs other considerations" I suppose means "bog off, we've made a decision and you're too puny to question it" (c:

 

I have now asked the questions

 

Quote

Hi EA Lady,

 

Thank you for your response

 

For the record, can you please tell me exactly how many cases of sickness/poisoning have been attributed to the hoses that have been removed, and why it has taken the agency twenty two years to review “the Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999”?

 

Thanks and regards


Bacchus

 

 

 

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I would not think that the raising of users' blood pressure while waiting for hours for a fill is conducive to their "health, safety and well-being". 

Edited by Ronaldo47
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As a Thames resident I will be filtering River water for my washing requirements from now on.

 

Plenty of others do it. If done right it's actually quite a sensible option made all the more sensible by the senseless rearrangement of the "bulk" fresh water supply provision.  

 

My plan is a sand and gravel filled box followed by three filters and a UV lamp. 

 

should be ok for the washing side of the system but not sure I'd like to drink it..

 

 

ETA probably chuck some sterilising tablets in as well for good measure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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I sonetimes used to stay at a remote Welsh farmhouse that got its water supply from a clear mountain stream via a single sand filter consisting of a steel tank about 18" to 2' deep.  It had a notice warning guests not to disturb or remove the green slime layer from the top of the sand. A friend who works for the local water undertaking confirmed that the layer of slime that forms on such filters is a highly effective natural filter against harmful microbes and other particulate matter. 

 

 

 

Edited by Ronaldo47
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8 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I sonetimes used to stay at a remote Welsh farmhouse that got its water supply from a clear mountain stream via a single sand filter consisting of a steel tank about 18" to 2' deep.  It had a notice warning guests not to disturb or remove the green slime layer from the top of the sand. A friend who works for the local water undertaking confirmed that the layer of slime that forms on such filters is a highly effective natural filter against harmful microbes and other particulate matter. 

 

 

 

 

 

Known as a schmutzedecke. An essential part of @magnetman 's slow sand filter which you will find in many commercial water-treatment works

 

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