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TheBiscuits

Lockdown! Part 2

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44 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Agreed, as I have been led to understand, just any old face mask won't protect the wearer - if you breathe in the virus may not reach you (although if it's a coarse weave fabric it may) but it will sit on the mask for several hours waiting for you to touch the mask , for example, when you take it off, and transfer by other means

 

If you are exhaling the virus a mask will be more effective at stopping other people getting it if you are carrying it

Masks need to be rated FFP2 or FFP3.  This a rating which determines their effectiveness.  FFP2 are effective against aerosols, which you ideally need for Covid-19.

 

They need to seal effectively against the face, so sorry guys, that beard has to come off, or at least has to be cut back.  My son is being called up by an emergency dental treatment centre, and that is one of their requirements.  Designer stubble is out.  Wear gloves as well; apparently the virus will survive longer on latex gloves than fleece-type gloves (citation needed - can't remember where it came from, but it was a respectable source.

 

Meanwhile, any sort of mask made with a fine material is better than nothing.  Granny's old jumper is not acceptable.

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14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I've remembered it! 

 

3) Make EVERYONE wear masks when out in public. The countries that do this have a R of about half that of those (inc the UK) that don't.

 

 

Trouble is, the gummint don't have the option of 2) or 3), as they sat on their hands doing nothing when they had the time to get manufacturing the massive stock of test kits and face masks needed for those options. .  

Part of the problem with wearing masks is that idiots, even some doctors and I believe that a poster on here has said it, are saying that masks are very inefficient in stopping the virus. That says to people that they wont work so very few people actually use them. The thing is, as MTB has pointed out they are used to protect others from your spit and snot. AND any protection, however small, is massively better than no protection. You also have the British aversion to "looking like an idiot."

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6 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

And mortgage lenders seem to be concentrating their resources on requests for payment holidays, rather than new loans, and are not carrying out valuations, so transactions are likely to be drawn out.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/mar/26/halifax-withdraws-majority-of-mortgages-coronavirus

I just heard someone from Savils, (I think it was Savils), saying that this was going to have a huge effect on the agency business and property market, (NO SHIT SHERLOCK???). Then he said that they were finding it difficult to arrange valuations, and that the number of mortgage products had reduced.

 

Given the rules, like many businesses, there is no way their business should be operating in any way whatsoever - I am pretty sure the government have said as much. Viewings, valuations, further inspections - none of these are essential and are, in fact, completely irresponsible. Stay at home means, by default, don't go looking for a house to move to, and don't move to a new house. It applies to renters as well.

 

Unbelievable, except that I heard him say it :( 

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1 hour ago, pete.i said:

 You also have the British aversion to "looking like an idiot."

I went to a major hospital on Wednesday for a CT scan.  Apart from me, the only other person I saw with a mask was the radiographer.  There were quite a lot of people around.

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2 hours ago, pete.i said:

Part of the problem with wearing masks is that idiots, even some doctors and I believe that a poster on here has said it, are saying that masks are very inefficient in stopping the virus. That says to people that they wont work so very few people actually use them. The thing is, as MTB has pointed out they are used to protect others from your spit and snot. AND any protection, however small, is massively better than no protection. You also have the British aversion to "looking like an idiot."

I have lived in Britain since I was 5, so 61 years altogether, without seeing anything to confirm this assertion. Rather the opposite in fact.

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2 hours ago, dor said:

Masks need to be rated FFP2 or FFP3.  This a rating which determines their effectiveness.  FFP2 are effective against aerosols, which you ideally need for Covid-19.

FFP2 masks are no protection against Aerosols.

 

From UKMEDS website :

 

FFP1

Respirator masks (which means they are made of a fabric designed to filter the air or impurities) are based on a grading system do indicate how much protection they offer.

First up is FFP1, which protects against materials in concentrations up to 4x OEL or 4x APF (assigned protection factor). Because it is the first rung on the ladder (so to speak).

FFP2

Next is FFP2 and these offer more protection than FFP1, at concentrations up to 12x OEL or 10x APF. They are the European equivalent of the N95 respirator masks used in the US and this kind meet the guidance from the World Health Organisation (WHO).

FFP3

The masks that offer the highest level of protection are FFP3, which protect against materials in concentrations up to 50x OEL or 20x APF. This is substantially higher than FFP1 and they can block both liquid and solid aerosols.

 

Current NHS guidelines stipulate FFP3 face masks for virus and bacterial infection control when the contagion is spread through coughing and sneezing (such as with the coronavirus). They are also often used by healthcare professionals when handling hazardous pharmaceutical chemicals

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Depends who you go to.

 

E.g.: 

FFP2 masks have a minimum of 94% filtration percentage and maximum 8% leakage to the inside. They are mainly used in construction, agriculture, and by healthcare professionals against influenza viruses. They are currently used for protection against the coronavirus.

FFP3 masks are the most filtering mask of the FFPs. With a minimum filtration percentage of 99% and maximum 2% leakage to the inside, they protect against very fine particles such as asbestos.

 

My FFP2 masks clearly say they are effective against aerosols, but not oil-based aerosols, provided they are fitted correctly.

 

My son's advice from the NHS is to use FFP2 or FFP3, both of which are effective against influenza viruses including Covid-19.

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2 minutes ago, dor said:

Depends who you go to.

As you say.

 

All the research I did before buying suggested that for protection against coughs & sneezes it needed to be FPP3.

 

I bought all mine from Screwfix.

(£11 for 5)

 

 

I have just looked and see that Screwfix have now removed all reference to masks from their website.

 

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have just looked and see that Screwfix have now removed all reference to masks from their website

The same thing happens if you search for ‘Dettol’ on the ASDA website. 
 

However, Screwfix have also removed anything that’s not considered ‘essential’ so you won’t find paint either (I was looking for some decking cleaner/reviver). 

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13 hours ago, WotEver said:

I lost my kite on Hastings beach. I cried. 


I used to like the fishermen’s museum though - is it still there?

Not been there for quite a few years I'm afraid so don't know. We tend to go to Camber Sands when we want to visit the beach as it's much nearer to us in Ashford.

Recently we've spent a lot of time in Margate as that's where our son and daughter in law live.

I do yearn for the seaside, I was born and brought up in Shoeburyness within a 5 minute walk of the beach and I do miss it.

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Strange times we're living in. This is hubby's permission to travel in case he gets stopped on his way to or from work.

 

IMG_20200327_221425__01__01__01.jpg

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10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

FFP2 masks are no protection against Aerosols.

 

Which totally misses the point of mask-wearing.

 

The point of masks, ANY mask, is that they protect everyone else, not you. If YOU have the bug, a mask statistically reduces the chances of you passing it on to other people. The reproduction rate R of countries where everyone wears masks in public (S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) is half that of the countries that don't. 

 

 

Of all the things a country can do to protect itself from the virus, wearing masks is the single most effective.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which totally misses the point of mask-wearing.

 

The point of masks, ANY mask, is that they protect everyone else, not you. If YOU have the bug, a mask statistically reduces the chances of you passing it on to other people. The reproduction rate R of countries where everyone wears masks in public (S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) is half that of the countries that don't. 

 

 

Of all the things a country can do to protect itself from the virus, wearing masks is the single most effective.

 

 

A mask and goggles will also protect the wearer.

 

At a minimum it means that you cannot 'scratch' your eyes, pick your nose, or put infected fingers in your mouth.

They will also stop aerosol droplets from a sneeze / cough entering your airways / eyes - I'm sure nursing staff don't wear all that PPE to stop them infecting the patients suffering from C19.

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For any defensive mask to be 100% effective it has to work on a positive pressure principle, which involves air pumped to the mask. I remember when I was a firefighter in the 70s we had self contained breathing apparatus with negative pressure face masks, whenever I entered a smoke logged building I initially got a whiff of smoke, when we converted to positive pressure sets I never smelt anything. 

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On 26/03/2020 at 18:26, BEngo said:

The guaranteed (only viable)strategy for controlling covid19 is the same as for any other virus.  Develop and maintain herd immunity.  Either sufficient folk have to get it and recover or sufficient folk have to be vaccinated.  At gthe moment there is no vaccine, and thus no vaccination possibility, so a lot of folk need to get if and recover.

 

 

Herd immunity (second to vaccines) is the best (long-term) strategy assuming that we know that any built up immunity will 'stick'. The common cold (also another coronavirus) has immunity for around 3 months and then you can get it again (which is why herd immunity is not a viable strategy for that virus.)

I would like to see more papers showing how long immunity from covid19 lasts for before relying on a herd immunity strategy.    Testing, Masks, social distancing seem to be better strategies from my perspective for the time being. (testing and masks in global shortage - so all we are left with is.....)

 

Also worth mentioning, that herd immunity doesn't really kick in until 80% of the population has already had it.  Not sure I want to calculate the death rate it would take to get it to that point even if immunity does 'stick'.

 

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6 minutes ago, buccaneer66 said:

This company are making face visors at cost for sale to anyone, people have been buying them to donate to the NHS.

https://www.displaymode.co.uk/face-visors/

 

People with 3D printers are making them for free, also clips to hold facemasks so their ears don't get sore

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I am working on the premise that a simple mask, non-FFFFFFFF, will protect me from the negative (:D) effects of remnants of somebody sneezing some time ago, even though it is not rated for continuous high-density attack.  The old one I use is rated A1P2 if I remember correctly.  Is that any good?  Protecting my eyes is more of a challenge as ordinary plastic facemasks fit so badly.

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On 27/03/2020 at 13:24, WotEver said:

The same thing happens if you search for ‘Dettol’ on the ASDA website. 
 

However, Screwfix have also removed anything that’s not considered ‘essential’ so you won’t find paint either (I was looking for some decking cleaner/reviver). 

Screwfix ran out of masks 10 days ago

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1 hour ago, moiuk said:

Also worth mentioning, that herd immunity doesn't really kick in until 80% of the population has already had it.  Not sure I want to calculate the death rate it would take to get it to that point even if immunity does 'stick'.

 

Assume an infection rate of 80%: total number of cases c50 million In the UK. Death rate approx 1% = 500,000. Not going to be pretty, is it?

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53 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

Assume an infection rate of 80%: total number of cases c50 million In the UK. Death rate approx 1% = 500,000. Not going to be pretty, is it?

 

Which is why we are having such a big push to slow down the spread of the infection across the UK. If it spreads through the population in six months, thats 2,739 people a day dying in our hospitals. Worse than not pretty. 

 

Slow down the spread out over two years (the current unspoken govt policy) and you get 684 deaths per day, pretty much what we have now. Just aboiut manageable. 

 

This also buys some time to develop other strategies for dealing with it (e.g. a vaccine and/or drugs that cure it) for those catching it later in the cycle.

 

 

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