Boat survey finding

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Also it's not just about the pipe or hose attached to the fitting inside the boat. If the fitting is sheared off in a lock or on a wall as Ditchcrawler describes, then a hole may be left in the side of the hull only a few inches above the waterline which the owner may be unaware of.

 

Note that the OP says "galley outlet". That is not the same as a skin fitting, although it might be. On many canal boats (unlike GRP or wood) the outlet is steel pipe welded into the hull that is flush on the outside so can't get knocked off.  The OP needs to see exactly how his boat is fitted and then decide for himself.

[Tacet]

9 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Has anyone in all history ever successfully sued a surveyor?

Yes

8 hours ago, Ianws said:

I'm guessing an insurer couldn't take action regarding a claim resulting from faults not covered in a dodgy survey they relied on as they wouldn't be part of the contract. Would they push it back on  the boat owner, who would then find it practically impossible to sue the surveyor, or would they just accept the survey and pay out. 

 

An insurance company would usually require liability for a survey to extend to itself - or commission the survey directly, albeit with the prospective insured footing the bill

[blackrose]

57 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Note that the OP says "galley outlet". That is not the same as a skin fitting, although it might be. On many canal boats (unlike GRP or wood) the outlet is steel pipe welded into the hull that is flush on the outside so can't get knocked off.  The OP needs to see exactly how his boat is fitted and then decide for himself.

 

Yes I didn't notice that and a steel pipe welded in and ground flush is obviously not going to get damaged in a lock. However, all waste pipes, especially those from galley sinks are prone to collecting bits of crap from above which in turn hold water and can corrode the pipe from the inside, possibly without anyone realising. I'm afraid the result of a welded in steel waste pipe too close to the waterline which has corroded through is exactly the same as a sheared off skin fitting.

Edited March 24 by blackrose

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

We got £3k off the purchase price of our first boat we bought, due to the survey. And they spotted the propeller nut wasn't present. So it worked out for us.

 

Likewise, the surveyor noted the inverter wasn't working. Seller agreed to a £2K price drop rather than get it repaired. When I got the boat home and plugged it into my mains the inverter worked, so it must have been a dodgy supply at the dry dock.

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

We got £3k off the purchase price of our first boat we bought, due to the survey. And they spotted the propeller nut wasn't present. So it worked out for us.

My last boat I got 13 K off because I turned up on a rainy cold day, didn't piss about with a survey and offered cash by bank transfer there and then. Twenty minutes from first turning up and I owned the boat. I did similar with the one before that and a couple of others. Enforced surveys for insurance purposes are however much harder to avoid.

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

My last boat I got 13 K off because I turned up on a rainy cold day, didn't piss about with a survey and offered cash by bank transfer there and then. Twenty minutes from first turning up and I owned the boat. I did similar with the one before that and a couple of others. Enforced surveys for insurance purposes are however much harder to avoid.

I got a big discount of the recent purchase so yes money talks

[Machpoint005]

10 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Has anyone in all history ever successfully sued a surveyor?

 

Probably immaterial, Arthur. The insurance company might take a hit on one policy, but they would not give the surveyor any more work ... and insurance companies talk to each other. The result would be that no insurer would accept any of that surveyor's reports, thereby effectively eliminating his business and protecting the shareholders of all insurance companies. 

 

As somebody has already implied, insurers are much, much bigger than one insignificant boat owner. 

 

 

 

 

[MtB]

30 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Probably immaterial, Arthur. The insurance company might take a hit on one policy, but they would not give the surveyor any more work ... and insurance companies talk to each other. The result would be that no insurer would accept any of that surveyor's reports, thereby effectively eliminating his business and protecting the shareholders of all insurance companies. 

 

As somebody has already implied, insurers are much, much bigger than one insignificant boat owner. 

 

Quite so. And insurance companies would not insist on a survey if it was of no value to them. To assert they require surveys because someone at the insurance company has a mate who is a surveyor (jobs for the boys) is simply risible. 

 

They may not decide to sue any individual surveyor but insisting on seeing surveys of old boats before insuring them will, on a statistical basis, reduce the probability of a claim on any one policy, thereby making the whole business strategy more profitable. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

  If the fitting is sheared off in a lock or on a wall as Ditchcrawler describes, then a hole may be left in the side of the hull only a few inches above the waterline which the owner may be unaware of.  

In my case I went found it with sealant when I found it but it was the good coating of Sprayfoam om the inside that held it and kept things watertight 

[PaulJ]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 I'm afraid the result of a welded in steel waste pipe too close to the waterline which has corroded through is exactly the same as a sheared off skin fitting.

Not really. A corroded welded in fitting will only drip slightly to start increasing over time.

You would hope the appearance or smell over time of damp would be noticed and give warning of the problem.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, PaulJ said:

Not really. A corroded welded in fitting will only drip slightly to start increasing over time.

You would hope the appearance or smell over time of damp would be noticed and give warning of the problem.

 

"You would hope" ...famous last words.

 

I've personally known several people who had absolutely no idea that a waste pipe was leaking into their bilges until they noticed a damp patch on the floor or the boat listing. If you have animals on the boat the smell of wastewater may be masked. Also a corroded pipe may start out dripping but the hole size could soon increase if it's not noticed. Is that really something you want close to the waterline?

 

Holes from damage to a hull will always vary in size whatever their cause and no two holes will ever be the same. But unless we're splitting hairs, I maintain that a hole in the hull that's close to the waterline is effectively the same thing whether it's a sheared skin fitting or a corroded pipe. 

Edited March 24 by blackrose

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, PaulJ said:

Not really. A corroded welded in fitting will only drip slightly to start increasing over time.

You would hope the appearance or smell over time of damp would be noticed and give warning of the problem.

This plastic fitting was screwed onto a threaded pipe welded to the hull. It was all working perfectly, with no dripping, damp or smell, until I came to remove the wash basin and the heavily corroded pipe came off in my hand. The boat had been fitted out about 25 years earlier. But fortunately it was way above the water line.

 

Edited March 24 by David Mack

[blackrose]

So the bottom line is that unless it's a dedicated underwater hull penetration with a proper seacock, all waste outlets, skin fittings and welded-in pipes should be a certain height above the waterline. I think my galley sink outlet skin fitting is about 8" above the waterline rather than the recommended 10" as that was the highest I could put it while allowing the sink to be gravity drained. I decided that was good enough when I installed the sink and the skin fitting so at least I made that decision with some awareness of the issues. Some boats I see have outlets right down to the waterline and I can't help wondering if the owners are even aware of the potential problems.

[TheBiscuits]

14 minutes ago, blackrose said:

So the bottom line is that unless it's a dedicated underwater hull penetration with a proper seacock, all waste outlets, skin fittings and welded-in pipes should be a certain height above the waterline.

 

@DRP had one of those fall off Ribble, fortunately while in a dry dock and not on the big rivers they'd just been on!

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

So the bottom line is that unless it's a dedicated underwater hull penetration with a proper seacock, all waste outlets, skin fittings and welded-in pipes should be a certain height above the waterline. I think my galley sink outlet skin fitting is about 8" above the waterline rather than the recommended 10" as that was the highest I could put it while allowing the sink to be gravity drained. I decided that was good enough when I installed the sink and the skin fitting so at least I made that decision with some awareness of the issues. Some boats I see have outlets right down to the waterline and I can't help wondering if the owners are even aware of the potential problems.

I go along with that, The one I posted the photo of was near the bow, it was a drain line for the tug deck and when working up locks it had quite a bit of water over it

[ditchcrawler]

On 23/03/2024 at 22:38, ditchcrawler said:

I have had two shear off when they have caught protruding steel work,  

Saw this today and like the idea.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

On 23/03/2024 at 21:14, Peter07 said:

Hello,

just received our survey and one of the concerns is the galley waste outlet is 60mm above the waterline, is this acceptable?

This is our first boat and looking for advice, thanks.

The outlets sound just like mine and surveyors have always picked up on them but it never comes up with BSS,

it is a small worry to me and most days I give them casual look over, looking for bangs and scrapes,

if you can inspect on the inside it might put your mind at rest, I’ve outlets with 3 brass fittings and all look as good as new inside with pipes firmly attached,

 

I assume because the surveyor has always picked up on them and written about them in the report that if I were to ever sink because one had failed/broken the insurers probably wouldn’t pay out any money saying it’s my negligence,

if the boat gets a good lean my outlets go under the water,

but then I think I’ve only about 8” of freeboard 🤷‍♀️

 

It’s not impossible to have them replaced higher up, depends how much room you have,

if your galley waste is easily accessible on the inside (like mine) I wouldn’t think it too troublesome to have it removed and replace further up?

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Saw this today and like the idea.

I like that idea too,

and that outlet is about the height of my gunnel. 

[blackrose]

7 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

The outlets sound just like mine and surveyors have always picked up on them but it never comes up with BSS,

 

 

That's because it's not part of the BSS inspection - at least as far as I'm aware?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

7 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

That's because it's not part of the BSS inspection - at least as far as I'm aware?

There was mention further up the thread about whether it was or not, just sharing my experience that it’s only ever cropped up with the surveyor,

the surveyor always says not ideal and notes them down as something that needs ‘maintaining well’ (or some such wording)

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, blackrose said:

That's because it's not part of the BSS inspection - at least as far as I'm aware?

 

It is a compulsory requirement that on 'non-private' boats the thru-hulls must be 10" above the water line.

For private boats it is simply an advisory.

 

From the BSS :

 

 

To reduce the risk of your boat sinking if it keels over or is excessively weighed down, it's a good idea for privately owned boats to only have openings which are at a height of at least 250mm (10ins) above the waterline. Where openings are necessary below this level this risk can be reduced by ensuring that these openings are permanently and securely connected to ducts or pipes, which are watertight up to that level.

Self-draining cockpits may not be able to meet the 250mm (10ins) recommendation but, for privately owned boats, it's a good idea to stop water getting into other parts of the hull by incorporating non-return valves in the drains and/or having bulkheads or cills up to a height of 150mm (6ins).

A weed hatch, if not properly secured, can allow water into the bilges of a boat, which could ultimately cause it to sink. It's advisable for privately owned boats to have a secure and watertight weed hatch which reaches to at least 150mm (6ins) above the waterline, when the boat is loaded up as normal.