Try before you buy?

[WhiteSuit]

Looking for a boat with an old engine in a proper engine room, I thought I had found a couple of potential boats at one broker in the East Midlands. I used this broker to sell my last boat and had no issues over that sale. I rang and made appointments for both boats making it clear I needed to hear the engines if the boat was as good 'in the flesh'. My first boat had a Kingfisher which was rather loud, though a nice sound, in particular when bouncing off lock walls. So much so that it used to be a relief to pull the stop after a few hours cruising.

Having travelled over a hundred miles to view, the first boat ticked a lot of boxes so I asked to hear it run. The response was we don't start old engines till you have agreed a price and paid a deposit. The deposit would have included a £1000 non refundable portion. They would run a modern engine but there was no way you could move away from the jetty. How can you tell if a boat can stop/start, is manoeuvrable and the gearbox is functioning without trying it? "We are not here for a jolly" was the response. Every other boat I have bought, through brokers, I had a test cruise. They seemed to think that a survey would show any issue but by that stage it would have cost me at least £2000, deposit lift out and survey, which I would loose in order to confirm the boat was right. They also would not connect leisure batts or gas to check everything was working. The boat that ticked the boxes for me I would not even have had a survey on as there was a year old survey to view. But I would have needed to check everything was in order before putting an offer in. I wasn't prepared to put an offer in under those conditions. I was told that I could hear the engine running, possibly, if I made arrangements during the week. That was exactly my understanding of my phone call making this appointment.

Needless to say I didn't put an offer in and so did 200+ miles and left with a real feeling of bad taste with the broker. Am I just being a bit Victor Meldrew or would you spend tens of thousands of pounds on something you hadn't properly viewed?

[mrsmelly]

I didnt use to take boats for a spin before I bought them but as the bloke with the cash in your pocket and wanting to take it for a quick spin b4 deciding I think its a fair thing to want to do. Broker doesnt want to do any work for his easy money it seems? Its your money spend it where they want it.

[junior]

Why don't you just say which broker?

[WhiteSuit]

19 minutes ago, junior said:

Why don't you just say which broker?

I thought everyone would work that out

[Mike Tee]

I’m not answering the question, but the broker we bought through recently had a similar £1000 non refundable deposit scheme - that was ABNB. Although I did manage to get the seller to meet me at the boat, and he gave me a really good run through of the boat including engine run and gearbox operation.

[Ewan123]

Seems off to me. We only went to one broker when looking (Virginia Currer) before buying privately but they were encouraging us to take boats out for a spin. Modern engines in all, but still.

 

Surveyors don't even necessarily try and start the engine as I understand it.

 

The idea of putting money down before even hearing wheher the engine runs would be a big No Thanks from me. Maybe this engine doesn't really like starting...

Edited November 5, 2023 by Ewan123

[jonathanA]

£ 1000 non refundable deposit? No thanks. Simply refuse their terms or walk away. Simples. 

 

[StevieN]

2 hours ago, WhiteSuit said:

 The boat that ticked the boxes for me I would not even have had a survey on as there was a year old survey to view. But I would have needed to check everything was in order before putting an offer in. 

I'll be in the market for buying sometime next year so apologies if I've got this wrong, but from everything I've read and understand, whilst a boat may have had a recent survey that could be used as some sort of reference to check condition, it's of no value if its not something you've commissioned and in your name.

Edited to add - and then you put your offer in based on the results of your survey.

Edited November 5, 2023 by StevieN

[Mike Tee]

No, you make an offer subject to survey - then if the survey throws up anything significant you can try and negotiate based on repair costs. I think it’s a crap system in some ways, but if the boat you want is with a broker who has a ‘cash first’ system, then it’s a judgement call only you can make.

And as you say, if there is a survey available, that is just an indication for you - only a survey commissioned by you is binding - and the surveyors agreement will have so many get out clauses you will have virtually no comeback on the surveyor but it may well point out any really bad points enough for you to walk away.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Mike Tee

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

I’m not answering the question, but the broker we bought through recently had a similar £1000 non refundable deposit scheme - that was ABNB. Although I did manage to get the seller to meet me at the boat, and he gave me a really good run through of the boat including engine run and gearbox operation.

 

How curious. I tried to engage ABNB to sell one of mine matching the description of the OP's desire a couple of years ago. Could I raise any interest from ABNB? NOOO not a prayer.....!!! 

 

Weird, as it is a cracking, pretty, tug-style boat by a respected builder with a quality vintage engine in a delightful engine room. They wouldn't even visit to value it. 

 

I changed my mind and kept it, and sold one of my others instead.

 

ABNB were good 25 years ago, but they a sh!t broker these days IMHO.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by MtB
Add a bit.

[Stroudwater1]

TBF it’s quite possible that they haven’t a clue how to start the traditional engines they have. The broker we bought ours from didn’t. When we came for a second viewing they had to speak to the owner to ask them  and even then had to get someone else in who thought the compression screws were the rocker cover screws 🤣 

 

This non refundable deposit has been discussed before IIRC. 
 

There seems to be a glut of boats for sale and I don’t think they can afford to continue that policy or say things they said to you for too long. 
 

 

[blackrose]

Turning up for a viewing and expecting to take a boat out for a spin is unreasonable unless you have made prior arrangements for this which have been agreed by the broker or vendor. But turning up for a viewing and simply asking to hear the engine start is entirely reasonable and any broker or vendor who refuses to do so is being unreasonable in my opinion, especially if they're effectively asking you to gamble £1,000 on it starting properly and sounding healthy.

Edited November 6, 2023 by blackrose

[Mike Hurley]

Would you buy a used car without a test drive? me neither.

[matty40s]

A couple I know came viewing boats locally, there wasnt exactly what they wanted here, but it was known that the perfect boat was up for sale in another local marina under the "all boats in this marina can only be sold by our linked brokerage" rubbish in the contract.

The couple had driven a long distance, and went to the other marina hopefully.

The marina manager(who was sat in her office)flatly refused to let them see the boat saying they would have to come back midweek. Strange, as she gets a decent cut of the commission.

The couple didnt bother, and a few weeks later the boat was moved up to North Kilworth after the owners found out about the missed sale.

 

[rusty69]

14 minutes ago, matty40s said:

A couple I know came viewing boats locally, there wasnt exactly what they wanted here, but it was known that the perfect boat was up for sale in another local marina under the "all boats in this marina can only be sold by our linked brokerage" rubbish in the contract.

The couple had driven a long distance, and went to the other marina hopefully.

The marina manager(who was sat in her office)flatly refused to let them see the boat saying they would have to come back midweek. Strange, as she gets a decent cut of the commission.

The couple didnt bother, and a few weeks later the boat was moved up to North Kilworth after the owners found out about the missed sale.

 

That business model seems to favour the broker over the boat owner. 

[Mike Tee]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

Turning up for a viewing and expecting to take a boat out for a spin is unreasonable unless you have made prior arrangements for this which have been agreed by the broker or vendor. But turning up for a viewing and simply asking to hear the engine start is entirely reasonable and any broker or vendor who refuses to do so is being unreasonable in my opinion, especially if they're effectively asking you to gamble £1,000 on it starting properly and sounding healthy.

That has always been my feeling too. And I have always said I would not buy under some of the conditions mentioned on this thread - but!! They had the boat we wanted at a good price. Went to see it hoping it had been mis-described but it was fine. Spent a couple of hours getting into everything, and when I asked for an engine run was told no as it was a vintage. 

I talked about the non refundable deposit if it was a bag of nails and they were quite fair about it - in that case my deposit would be returned. Then, as I said, the seller spent the afternoon with me and all was well - luckily!

[Bee]

I can understand the reluctance to try and start old engines - I would not know how to try and start some ancient lump that needed blowlamping, cartridges or starting with petrol but in that case the broker should get in touch with the owner.  I'm not keen on brokers anyway, in my opinion they don't do much and are responsible for putting up boat prices by operating virtual cartels. As for non refundable deposits - stuff that.

[Didne]

I went to look at a couple of boats last week advertised on boatfinderbrokerage … one was a heap, the other was beautiful … both £70,000 … and both under a ‘10% non refundable deposit’ clause unless ‘something catastrophic is discovered’ … whooooa … who’s definition of catastrophic ? … I met the owner of the beautiful one and he was lovely … spent a good bit of time talking boat … but £7 k at risk ? … what if my circumstances change in the meantime … the owner was shocked when I told him … I walked away … I’d’ve risked £1 k … but £ 7 ?

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, Didne said:

I met the owner of the beautiful one and he was lovely … spent a good bit of time talking boat … but £7 k at risk ? … what if my circumstances change in the meantime … the owner was shocked when I told him … I walked away … I’d’ve risked £1 k … but £ 7 ?

Well if you've met the owner can't you just ask him/her to take you out on a trip? 

[Didne]

Hmmm … good point … I have his phone number … perhaps I will … thanks … xxx

[Private Fraser]

I’ve looked at several boats recently ranging in price from £50000 to £120000, and the descriptions by the brokers leaves a lot to be desired, a couple of the ones in the 100k range imo weren’t fit to be used as a kennel never mind a liveaboard, and the attitude of brokers is disgusting when asking questions about the boat. 
me ‘why is there oil in the bilge?’

broker ‘ah well it’s a classic engine and it lets you know there’s oil in it’!! 🙄

 

on other occasions just a flat ‘don’t know’  not ‘I’ll find out for you’

 

 

[Higgs]

If the brokers are incapable of providing a decent service to either the seller or the buyer, perhaps it might be reasonable to assume that they are useless.

 

Money for old rope.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Higgs

[Alan de Enfield]

There are several advantages to dealing with a broker (as there are with Estate agents and 2nd hand car dealers) - non of them to do with providing the buyer with information, help or offering additional ownership checks etc.

 

Basically brokers take money for listing on their website and providing boat parking.

 

For the Seller :

They do not have to deal with the 'great unwashed public'

They can avoid having to go and demonstrate the boat to loads of tyre kickers

They don't have to talk about that embarassing subject - Money.

They don't have to say 'no' to a potential buyer and risk a punch in the mouth.

 

For the Buyer :

A number of boats all within a small area - you could travel 1000s of miles looking at different privately owned boats but with a broker there could be several that meet your requirements in one marina.

Lots of adverts on the web to view.

Many brokers based in a fairly small area around the Midlands

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

38 minutes ago, Didne said:

I went to look at a couple of boats last week advertised on boatfinderbrokerage … one was a heap, the other was beautiful … both £70,000 … and both under a ‘10% non refundable deposit’ clause unless ‘something catastrophic is discovered’ … whooooa … who’s definition of catastrophic ? … I met the owner of the beautiful one and he was lovely … spent a good bit of time talking boat … but £7 k at risk ? … what if my circumstances change in the meantime … the owner was shocked when I told him … I walked away … I’d’ve risked £1 k … but £ 7 ?

  If I was the owner I think I would be asking the Broker about the deposit situation, as it seams it maybe has lost a sale. As you say even if you proceeded you may have an unforeseen event in your life that genuinely forces you to pull out of the sale.

 I wonder if brokers are more stricter with deposits after the surge in boat interest after Lockdown? I suspect there may of been a lot of “Rosie & Jim” dreamers wasting peoples time out there Fender kicking.

Edited November 6, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Higgs]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are several advantages to dealing with a broker (as there are with Estate agents and 2nd hand car dealers) - non of them to do with providing the buyer with information, help or offering additional ownership checks etc.

 

Basically brokers take money for listing on their website and providing boat parking.

 

For the Seller :

They do not have to deal with the 'great unwashed public'

They can avoid having to go and demonstrate the boat to loads of tyre kickers

They don't have to talk about that embarassing subject - Money.

They don't have to say 'no' to a potential buyer and risk a punch in the mouth.

 

For the Buyer :

A number of boats all within a small area - you could travel 1000s of miles looking at different privately owned boats but with a broker there could be several that meet your requirements in one marina.

Lots of adverts on the web to view.

Many brokers based in a fairly small area around the Midlands

 

Non of this is any good, if the buyer travels hundreds of miles and then has the broker object to providing essential information to the potential buyer.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Higgs