Think I might be in trouble.

[Midnight]

This is almost beyond imagination. I'm afraid the boatyard is ripping you off. Everything you mention seems to have cost well over the odds. 10k for wooden doors you didnt ask for??? Take your boat away as soon as its in the water, preferably before paying them any more. 

[LEO]

On 25/02/2023 at 14:02, Arthur Marshall said:

That's the difference between a seller's survey and a buyer's. Works the same with houses. Surveyors are like consultants - they get work because they tell people what they want to hear and take no responsibility for any fallout.

PS it may something not sound like it, but I think we generally sympathise. I suspect a lot of us had the same sort of thing with our first boats. Mine was a wreck, but I knew it and had friends who would work on it.

Interesting, I worked as a Chartered Surveyor all my working life, giving (or trying to give) unprejudiced advice to sellers and purchasers about the condition of properties, sadly, many people disregard such advice, don't read reports fully and often once their mind is made up to buy a place they can't be persuaded to not proceed with a purchase, or negotiate a reduction. I am a firm believer in pre sale condition reports, properly commissioned and monitored, so that you know what you are valuing and selling and buying....be that houses or boats.............but what the heck, according to some that purchased wrecks, 'I am a 'frigging idiot who does not know my arse from elbow'..............

[jonathanA]

as you probably know I think you have been a tad trusting and somewhat foolish, if all your communication has been remote (phone/email) then that has not helped you. There is nothing like turning up on the spot and asking to see whats been done and then agreeing any changes/additional work having discussed what is going to be done.   I also think this helps build up some sort of rapport or understanding with the people doing the work (even if its of the I'll count my fingers after shaking hands with them type of understanding) 

 

Even when my boat is just in the yard for a few days to be blacked I make a point of visiting to 'see how its going' and ask if there are any issues they have spotted.   on my last blacking visit i was told the anodes need replacing, no great surprise as they were at least 12 years old and at the last 3 blackings I was told they would need doing next time.  so was happy to agree a cost and ask them to do it,  on one of my visits I could see they hadn't been changed, but as i went back before the boat was refloated I could see they had been changed and was happy with the work.  They also did the tunnel bands for me and in both cases I received an email quote following our conversation which matched what was discussed and I was happy to pay the final bill. 

13 minutes ago, LEO said:

Interesting, I worked as a Chartered Surveyor all my working life, giving (or trying to give) unprejudiced advice to sellers and purchasers about the condition of properties, sadly, many people disregard such advice, don't read reports fully and often once their mind is made up to buy a place they can't be persuaded to not proceed with a purchase, or negotiate a reduction. I am a firm believer in pre sale condition reports, properly commissioned and monitored, so that you know what you are valuing and selling and buying....be that houses or boats.............but what the heck, according to some that purchased wrecks, 'I am a 'frigging idiot who does not know my arse from elbow'..............

Very true Leo,  I don't recognise Arthurs assertion, when ive bought houses I've usually decided based on the evidence of my Mk 1 eyeball and the age/condition of the property what level of survey is appropriate.  The best advice I ever received was to read the report carefully , then speak to the surveyor and chat through anything I didn't understand and ask questions about recommendations.  in all but one case (a bank recommended surveyor) they have been very helpful and will tell you far more verbally even suggesting possible remedial actions 'off the record' as it were.   you can then proceed 'eyes wide open'  or pull out.  You do have to ignore the arse covering phrases like 'The electrical installation appears to be adequate but we recommend you engage a qualified electrician to..." and  my other favourite  "there was no sign of wood worm or other infestation in the timbers but you should engage a specialist contractor to... "  

 

I'd only have a boat survey for hull condition personally. 

[Bee]

What a depressing tale. I don't suppose there is much chance of any redress but there are a few general lessons for others that stand out.  I think it is really important to accumulate a lot of general knowledge about the type of boat that you are buying. Talk to others, the fact that this thread exists is because people will talk, albeit online, and share their knowledge. Walk towpaths and chat, some of the opinions will be plain wrong but a lot will be right and you will learn a lot. Learn how to do everything you possibly can yourself otherwise you are wide open to sharp practices, even if you have to rely on someone else to do work then try to understand what it is, why its needed and if its going to be expensive, whenever you are discussing work with a yard you are effectively sparring like a couple of boxers in a ring and your opponent must not think you are an easy mark. I could go on but that'll do for now.

[Sea Dog]

Have you tried talking to the Citizens Advice Bureau?

[HenryFreeman]

17 hours ago, david909 said:

Believe it or not I'm still waiting.

Always there's an excuse, or a reason. Or "nearly there, just a second coat of paint on the doors" and then "your water tank needs doing."
But, we had a conversation about this in February and you said "shall we go ahead with this?" and I said, "yes". 

 

I full well believe it. Sounds exactly like my very recent experience of boat yards. I'm not sure how this industry gets away with how they behave. Well, I suppose I do know - because there's no one else. I thought plumbers and electricians were bad but boat yards, specifically narrowboat boat yards, are on a whole different level of bad.

[harrybsmith]

Exceptionally poor from the yard and all concerned, my condolences.

 

I do think there are very, very few "professionals" on the inland waterways. They exist, I can think of 1 yard and 1 individual I've encountered I'd recommend, but on the most part it's buyer beware. It's a lot of work to replate a boat (I note my thread was linked earlier), but this is just a Mickey take.

 

If there's anything I can practically do to help you get the boat straight for a day then message me, let's see if we as a community of boaters can get this back on track 

[Sea Dog]

Have I missed where this situation is occurring? 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Have I missed where this situation is occurring? 

 

If you don't know then I guess the answer is 'yes'.

[david909]

I have avoided naming them thus far, and that will remain the case until I've got the boat away and under my control. 
Some instinct seems to say that it would be unwise.

North of Birmingham will do for now.

[Sea Dog]

2 minutes ago, david909 said:

I have avoided naming them thus far, and that will remain the case until I've got the boat away and under my control. 
Some instinct seems to say that it would be unwise.

Fair enough.

Hope you get an acceptable solution - I'd repeat my earlier advice that you try the CAB.

[david909]

Received and understood. Thankyou.

I explained the case to a legal company who seemed to think I had some grounds, but they wanted £1000 for a letter telling me what those grounds were.
I just laughed.

[Tracy D'arth]

The legal eagles are worse than the boatyard.

[Paul C]

I think the crux of the issue is that you've bought a project boat but don't have the DIY skills or time to do the necessary work. In fact, I'd say the boat is end-of-life from an economic point of view. The survey(or) should have made this clear. If it didn't, you should pursue this (but with the amount of get-outs, its unlikely). Did you meet the surveyor? 

 

It doesn't help that the particular boatyard has been less than useless though.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I think the crux of the issue is that you've bought a project boat but don't have the DIY skills or time to do the necessary work. In fact, I'd say the boat is end-of-life from an economic point of view. The survey(or) should have made this clear. If it didn't, you should pursue this (but with the amount of get-outs, its unlikely). Did you meet the surveyor? 

 

It doesn't help that the particular boatyard has been less than useless though.

 

I think that havi ng a thorough 'briefing' with the surveyor outlining what you want / need / expect can go a long way towards getting a satisfactory report.

 

eg : If you want a liveaboard (and don't know what a liveaboard boat needs) then explain that to him and he will evaluate it based on typical liveaboard boat fit out (number / size of batteries, Inverter / mains wiring, size of water tank, hot water, at least 2 options for heating. He'd advise you that it is uneconomical to have an Alde gas heating system (1 - 2 cylinders per week in the winter - £100 / week).

 

Explain you are on a budget but dont want a project - as soon as he finds 'costly items that need fixing' he can conclude the survey and only charge you a fraction of the full coat.

 

Etc Etc Etc,

 

As Busby used to say "Its good to talk", and "say it with words"

 

Texting, messages and email are all very good, but you'll learn, and, pass information far better using your mouth !

 

 

 

[david909]

59 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The legal eagles are worse than the boatyard.

Yes, indeed.

I would have to represent myself.
I'm aware of the quip, "the man who represents himself has a fool for a lawyer." 
I spent some time studying the Law so am aware how it works.

I found the surveyor myself but didn’t meet him. I did cross check him before I contacted him and he was entirely independent of the Marina/brokers as far as I could see. The issue was that I was grievously misled over the likely cost of the necessary works, and the repeatedly promised services then not provided (both by the brokers), and the, “meet the previous owner at hand over”, promise that also didn’t happen, the broker again.

If the yard is liable in any way then it has to be for egregious markups of the price charged for parts, if that’s what has happened. Even seemingly optimistic claims for hours spent doing the work would probably come down to one opinion vs another unless the claim was blatantly absurd. No matter how morally offensive an act maybe if it doesn’t break the law there’s no comeback.

 

I’ve emailed a series of questions to him so I know precisely where I am. I await a reply. 

 

 

[blackrose]

Some boat yards, brokers and even surveyors can be a bunch of c@nts when they see a new boater and think they can extract money from someone who doesn't know what they're doing. 

 

It happened to me 25 years ago, though fortunately I only lost a couple of grand.

 

Like it or not they are part of the so-called boating community - the unacceptable face. These people lack basic morals and although it's only a minority I'm afraid it's an industry-wide problem.

[Arthur Marshall]

1.  

10 hours ago, LEO said:

Interesting, I worked as a Chartered Surveyor all my working life, giving (or trying to give) unprejudiced advice to sellers and purchasers about the condition of properties, sadly, many people disregard such advice, don't read reports fully and often once their mind is made up to buy a place they can't be persuaded to not proceed with a purchase, or negotiate a reduction. I am a firm believer in pre sale condition reports, properly commissioned and monitored, so that you know what you are valuing and selling and buying....be that houses or boats.............but what the heck, according to some that purchased wrecks, 'I am a 'frigging idiot who does not know my arse from elbow'..............

The survey I had on my last house (my wife insisted on it) said the house wasn't worth the asking price because of the layout (one reason we wanted it), the colour scheme of the internal decoration, and the fact that it was near a council estate (half a mile away over a main road). He missed the trace of damp in the storage under the roof. And that was it. Probably, out of the dozen or so houses I've bought, as good as any. I've had duff advice about tree roots which nearly cost me a mortgage. I'm sure Leo is the exception that proves the rule, and, seeing as that was how he earned his living, I'm sure he's a firm believer. Us at the paying end, however, once we've unscrambled all the weasel (none of this makes me liable for anything and I take no legal responsibility for a single word of this report) words, may not be.

I didn't have a survey on my boat, I took along a knowledgeable friend, knew exactly what I was getting and what needed to be done. It wasn't a wreck, just had been ignored for a few years. But what do I know? I've only had it thirty years.

[stagedamager]

7 hours ago, HenryFreeman said:

 

I full well believe it. Sounds exactly like my very recent experience of boat yards. I'm not sure how this industry gets away with how they behave. Well, I suppose I do know - because there's no one else. I thought plumbers and electricians were bad but boat yards, specifically narrowboat boat yards, are on a whole different level of bad.

We're not all that bad, it's just everyone gets tarred with the same brush sadly due to these very kind of instances.

[manxmike]

Is there any mileage in breaking into the yard and removing your boat in the dark of night? Providing of course that it's actually in the water, with the engine re-fitted and running ...........

Possession being 9 10ths of the law (not strictly true)

[david909]

No, we’re good. Work has completed and boat is due to be collected.

 I don’t want to leave with a state of war existing between us. Things get said that are later regretted. And forewarned is fore armed.

If naughtiness has occurred there are processes available by which the law can be brought to bear.

[MtB]

On 23/08/2023 at 14:29, HenryFreeman said:

I full well believe it. Sounds exactly like my very recent experience of boat yards. I'm not sure how this industry gets away with how they behave. Well, I suppose I do know - because there's no one else. I thought plumbers and electricians were bad but boat yards, specifically narrowboat boat yards, are on a whole different level of bad.

 

Boatyards are like people. All different. Some are great, most are shyte but which is which depends on you. I bet every boatyard has delighted customers, and also customers who are fuming. The ratio varies but it's up to you to forge the relationship. 

 

 

[LadyG]

What does your surveyor say, he knows the boat, he knows the yard and the broker. He may not want to get involved but you should push him, obviously not to the extent that he invoices you, make this clear,  use email to set up an appointment. Tell him you expect him to back up his survey and that is what you expected from such a well qualified professional!!!

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

What does your surveyor say, he knows the boat, he knows the yard and the broker. He may not want to get involved but you should push him, obviously not to the extent that he invoices you, make this clear,  use email to set up an appointment. Tell him you expect him to back up his survey and that is what you expected from such a well qualified professional!!!

 

What qualifications should one look for in a 'well qualified professional' surveyor, exactly?

 

Just curious....

 

 

 

[LadyG]

25 minutes ago, david909 said:

No, we’re good. Work has completed and boat is due to be collected.

 I don’t want to leave with a state of war existing between us. Things get said that are later regretted. And forewarned is fore armed.

If naughtiness has occurred there are processes available by which the law can be brought to bear.

Man up, if you leave without complaint he will say you were satisfied with the work and the cost.

No need to have a stand off, just tell him you are not pleased with the way things have worked out.. That you feel you have been shafted by your surveyor, broker, the vendor, and the yard, that makes it l a bit less, shall we say, personalised.

 

Just now, MtB said:

 

What qualifications should one look for in a 'well qualified professional' surveyor, exactly?

 

Just curious....

 

 

 

They have sat exams and have letters after their name,  they usually put all their USPs on their website or letterhead.

Professional in that they charge fees, like wot you do!