Think I might be in trouble.

[magnetman]

Not sure we are allowed to comment on brokers and surveyors. 

 

I just hope its not near the M1 or people will start 

[david909]

9 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I fear that you have let it get out of hand and go on too long. You should have got professional help long ago, its a bit late now.

An important question, who commissioned the survey?  What is this "Boat Agent" a surveyor, a boatyard , or a broker?  You would usually get a surveyor to check a boatyard's work and progress and use a broker to sell a boat on commission but never to organise repairs.

I commissioned the Surveyor. "A recent survey is available if you want.", but I chose to find one myself. The "recent survey" must have been done by a blindman on a dark night because it mentioned none of the issues that came to light with mine.

[Arthur Marshall]

6 minutes ago, david909 said:

I commissioned the Surveyor. "A recent survey is available if you want.", but I chose to find one myself. The "recent survey" must have been done by a blindman on a dark night because it mentioned none of the issues that came to light with mine.

That's the difference between a seller's survey and a buyer's. Works the same with houses. Surveyors are like consultants - they get work because they tell people what they want to hear and take no responsibility for any fallout.

PS it may something not sound like it, but I think we generally sympathise. I suspect a lot of us had the same sort of thing with our first boats. Mine was a wreck, but I knew it and had friends who would work on it.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, david909 said:

Yes, I freely admit - way out of my depth, with a way too trusting attitude. Alas.

And the boatyard has ripped you off as a result. I think it is in your best interest to move on to another boatyard as soon as possible, for a fresh start on the work that remains.

You now have an overplated blacked hull. Do you have the engine in and working? If so you can move on. You have working gas cooking and stove heating. You can manage with water in containers if necessary. And a porta potti type toilet. Likewise electricity isn't absolutely essential except for starting the engine. If the batteries have not been used for years they will be useless. So as a minimum get a new starter battery and check it is being charged by the engine alternator and by the solar. Disconnect the leisure batteries. Then you should be able to move the boat to somewhere nearer home, even if it does feel a bit like camping on board.

[cheesegas]

If the electrics are functioning enough for the boat to move, get it out the marina to somewhere with good road access or another marina.

 

Then, get someone in to go through the system with you and then quote for remedial works. Each and every boat is different with many possible ways to wire up battery banks etc, so it's very difficult to advise on what the problems are remotely if the whole system is an unknown. You'll have to pay for an electrician's time (not a domestic one, must be one that specialises in boats) to go through it with you, but it's totally worth it.

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So as a minimum get a new starter battery and check it is being charged by the engine alternator and by the solar.

 

Typically, it will not be being charged by solar unless it is a single alternator engine with voltage sensitive relay charge splitting. David909 that is for information only and can be explained if and when the time comes.

 

Test the charging the same way as I explained for testing the domestic bank, but connect the multimeter set to volts to the engine battery. Take a reading with the engine stationary, and then start and rev the engine. As you do so, the meter will dip as you turn the key and then jump up to more than the original voltage as you rev it. As long as you get a higher voltage with the engine running it is fine, but keep monitoring the meter, over the next hours it should climb to at least 14 volts. Do the same with the domestic bank to ensure that is charging as well.

3 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

If the electrics are functioning enough for the boat to move, get it out the marina to somewhere with good road access or another marina.

 

Then, get someone in to go through the system with you and then quote for remedial works. Each and every boat is different with many possible ways to wire up battery banks etc, so it's very difficult to advise on what the problems are remotely if the whole system is an unknown. You'll have to pay for an electrician's time (not a domestic one, must be one that specialises in boats) to go through it with you, but it's totally worth it.

 

If only he was closer to Reading, I would be happy to help with that FOC, but it is too far away.

[Lily Rose]

1 hour ago, david909 said:

I live in Birmingham, the boat was in Leicestershire.

 

I would suggest you put something on here that gives a more specific location for the boat. You might then be lucky and get an offer from an experienced boater to come and have a look. It's a shame that Tony Brooks is too far away but someone else might offer.

 

Failing that, you will probably get recommendations for trustworthy non-cowboy professionals nearby who could offer you the benefit of their advice at a reasonable price. 

 

 

[david909]

1 hour ago, Lily Rose said:

 

I would suggest you put something on here that gives a more specific location for the boat. You might then be lucky and get an offer from an experienced boater to come and have a look. It's a shame that Tony Brooks is too far away but someone else might offer.

 

Failing that, you will probably get recommendations for trustworthy non-cowboy professionals nearby who could offer you the benefit of their advice at a reasonable price. 

 

 

She's out of the water until mid-late March so it's all a moot point. Once that has changed I will indeed do as you suggest.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, david909 said:

She's out of the water until mid-late March so it's all a moot point. Once that has changed I will indeed do as you suggest.

 

Be aware, that as you found out, canal yards seem to operate in a different timescale to everyone else. Be prepared for it to be May or June.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Be aware, that as you found out, canal yards seem to operate in a different timescale to everyone else. Be prepared for it to be May or June.

Cheops' Law : Nothing ever gets built on schedule or within budget (R. Heinlein)

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, david909 said:

live in Birmingham, the boat was in Leicestershire.

 

I wonder if it is our 'favourite' Leicestershire marina (close to Pillings lock)

 

The one that unscrewed parts from peoples boats to stop the taking them away, you know, the one that owed C&RT £160,000 but went bankrupt and opened again with a new name and a new Director.

[david909]

50 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I wonder if it is our 'favourite' Leicestershire marina (close to Pillings lock)

 

The one that unscrewed parts from peoples boats to stop the taking them away, you know, the one that owed C&RT £160,000 but went bankrupt and opened again with a new name and a new Director.

No, definitely not. Checked the map - nowhere near each other. 

[stagedamager]

Or near big cooling towers?

[Arthur Marshall]

I can pm you the name and number of an engineer I have known and used for thirty years. He's not based near you but does travel. I've never known him do a bad job and he's patched up botched work on mine a few times. He's not the cheapest and is so busy can be hard to get hold of. Message me if you want the name.

[david909]

Believe it or not I'm still waiting.
Always there's an excuse, or a reason. Or "nearly there, just a second coat of paint on the doors" and then "your water tank needs doing."
But, we had a conversation about this in February and you said "shall we go ahead with this?" and I said, "yes". 

(And, after a phone call informing me that "to do all the doors, properly, in steel, will be around £2800 - 3200." to which I said no, this was way too expensive and that all I wanted was to be able to put steel bars across the doors to stop opportunist thieves. "Ok", he said, "I got it, keep the cost down".
Followed by bills for wooden doors, mega-expensive nuts and bolts, framing wood, hinges, coats of paint, all going way above £2800-3200. None of it asked for. None of it agreed to.)

"Well it must have been a phone conversation, not in email form."
But you've not had a problem doing any other work agreed verbally.
Well I forgot.
But it's a 28 day job, you said, so that's into September if you start today.
Which they still haven't.
"Short staffed and one off sick and one in hospital."
And now, £2000 to paint the water tank with two coats of paint, if I'd care to agree to them proceeding. This seems a bit expensive to me but I don't know enough to know for sure.
And they've done work which I clearly said, "don't do." 

Pay the bills, get the boat away, get the invoices looked at by a few others, (suitably anonymised) and then go and see a solicitor if my suspicions are confirmed?
If I refuse to pay while they have the boat they can seize it against the bill being paid? 

[David Mack]

9 minutes ago, david909 said:

If I refuse to pay while they have the boat they can seize it against the bill being paid? 

That depends on whether the written contract you have with the boatyard includes a provision permitting them to do that.  You do have a written contract....??

[david909]

No written contract. This is the first I've heard mention of such a thing.

[Alan de Enfield]

49 minutes ago, david909 said:

No written contract. This is the first I've heard mention of such a thing.

 

It is of no help now, but hopefully you can learn from your mistakes ................

 

As was said earlier on in this thread your experiences are not unique and from recent posts it seems every buyer of a 'budget boat' (or boats of 20+ years of age) is getting problems of one sort or another - you have been unlucky in that you have had so many problems on the one boat.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

21 minutes ago, david909 said:

No written contract. This is the first I've heard mention of such a thing.

Or did they give you a copy of their standard terms and conditions when you first asked them to do some work?

[Mike Adams]

I feel very sorry for you in your current situation. Unfortunately I have come across many people over the years in a similar situation. My suggestion is to get the boat away from the yard as soon as you can providing it is mobile. I doubt you will get very far with any sort of legal challenge you just need to limit your liabilities. I have seen people spend £60k on old boats (Springers) the resulting boat only worth a third of that.

A thirty year old narrowboat is generally worn out with at least part of the hull needing replating and all the equipment worn out or obsolete. Of course there will be exceptions but generally they are like old cars and life expired. I can never understand how some of these boats fetch the prices they do but there we are. To get away with running an old boat you need to be very practical in many aspects of engineering and diy and have the time to spare and enjoy working on it.

For most people it makes much more sense to buy a newish boat and borrow the money.

[Ewan123]

 

45 minutes ago, david909 said:

Believe it or not I'm still waiting.
Always there's an excuse, or a reason. Or "nearly there, just a second coat of paint on the doors" and then "your water tank needs doing."
But, we had a conversation about this in February and you said "shall we go ahead with this?" and I said, "yes". 

(And, after a phone call informing me that "to do all the doors, properly, in steel, will be around £2800 - 3200." to which I said no, this was way too expensive and that all I wanted was to be able to put steel bars across the doors to stop opportunist thieves. "Ok", he said, "I got it, keep the cost down".
Followed by bills for wooden doors, mega-expensive nuts and bolts, framing wood, hinges, coats of paint, all going way above £2800-3200. None of it asked for. None of it agreed to.)

"Well it must have been a phone conversation, not in email form."
But you've not had a problem doing any other work agreed verbally.
Well I forgot.
But it's a 28 day job, you said, so that's into September if you start today.
Which they still haven't.
"Short staffed and one off sick and one in hospital."
And now, £2000 to paint the water tank with two coats of paint, if I'd care to agree to them proceeding. This seems a bit expensive to me but I don't know enough to know for sure.
And they've done work which I clearly said, "don't do." 

Pay the bills, get the boat away, get the invoices looked at by a few others, (suitably anonymised) and then go and see a solicitor if my suspicions are confirmed?
If I refuse to pay while they have the boat they can seize it against the bill being paid? 

 

Hopefully the engine at least is working now? It does sound like you might be better off at a different yard that comes recommended.

[david909]

As far as I'm aware, everything but the cold water tank is done. So paying the final invoice and declining their offer for the tank is perfectly doable.
As far as I'm aware.

[Arthur Marshall]

22 minutes ago, david909 said:

As far as I'm aware, everything but the cold water tank is done. So paying the final invoice and declining their offer for the tank is perfectly doable.
As far as I'm aware.

I'd get it away from there asap. If the water tank isn't clean, or is rusty, get a water carrier for drinking water. It'll be fine for everything else. Then clean and paint it yourself - not a nice job but easy enough.

[LadyG]

I remember when I was sold a horse, obviously unsuitable, the first solicitor made situation worse, but the second one said that my naivety was a significant bonus in taking the case to court.

I had to take note of every expense.

I demanded they took the thing back they would  be charged expenses.

Unfortunately I could not cope, and l gave up.

But your £££££££ is not to be written off. 

I would be Interested to know the names of those who advised, I don't know why they should be shielded.

Go back to your surveyor and DEMAND more advice. Use email,  I always use email,  if a phone is used I follow up with email detailing time and date and summarise.  If they dont disagree,  they are agreeing, I tell them this .

Toughen up.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by LadyG

[david909]

I've been going though emails.

March 3rd 2023
"Yes, please quote for security work.
Padlock loops on side doors, rear hatch and some lockable method of stopping entry to front doors. Likely best implemented inside?"

March 13th
Still waiting for a quote for the security work.
And, any idea how long until all work is completed?

March 17th
Can I have a quote for the security work please?
And a reasonable idea of when the boat will be ready to collect?

April 11th

 I tried phoning you this afternoon but couldn’t get through.

I need a completion date as a matter of some personal urgency. Please can you let me know, as soon as possible, when 

she will be ready to collect.

April 11th
Several weeks? Right. I had misunderstood and was under the impression it was a week or two away. My current living arrangements are less than ideal so I need the boat to live on. I’ll have to make some alternative arrangements as I can’t sustain being in a hotel for that long. Might we say mid-May? 

April 24th
This bill is higher than the one quoted for the same work to be done in steel. I turned that quote down because it was too expensive. I made it clear I wanted the boat to be securable, not finished to showroom standards.  Now I’m to pay more for it being done in wood than in steel?

April 24th

Yes - the engine needs doing, obviously, as does the diesel tank. We talked of this ages ago, and I said yes then. I was also under the impression this had been done. 

My concern comes only from the disparity between guesstimated costs and actual costs.

I did ask for a quote for what remains to be done so I know where I am financially, but this has not been provided, hence the reaction to the price of the doors.

 

As you might imagine, I was quoted (not by yourselves) a sum for a range of work, some of which hasn’t even been looked at yet, that ran to around the £13-16k mark.  That was doable. On the basis of that figure I went ahead and bought the boat. (There was some egregious mis-selling involved.)

Currently we’re above the £30k mark, with the current £3500 as yet unpaid and god knows how much left to pay besides.

I might as well have taken £30k, piled it up in the garden and set it on fire.

The boat wasn’t really fit for sale, as it needed more or less everything replacing, I now realise. Doubtless it needs the interior timbers replacing as well, and the windows. But it ends up being more expensive than a new boat would have cost and more than I’ll ever get back for selling her.

So I have to make the best of what has become a nightmare for me. It has all but ended my marriage.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I clearly told them what to do regarding the boat's security, and they completely ignored me and went ahead and spent the best part of £10k on doing the doors in wood, after telling me the job in steel would cost around the £3k mark, and being told that, "no, this was too expensive. Find another way."
On top of that, the paintwork on the doors I told them not to put in "needs painting every 12 months and MUST be done in the next 3 months".
So, hundreds of pounds for a paint job, done by them, that won't last another 12 weeks?! And would I care to arrange to come and have it done by them.
After telling them not to put any paint other than primer on because I have paint waiting.
I told them repeatedly, from the outset, "there's a budget and it cannot be exceeded other than for dire need. Work must be done in a way that fits with that budget."  They ignored that completely too.
I get phoned and told "this thing needs doing", so I say, "yes, go ahead", then it doesn't get done. Conversely, I get phoned to say, "this needs doing" and I say, "no, that's too expensive, leave that" and then they ignore me and do it anyway.
One of my emails says, "what's the point in asking me what I want when you just ignore my answer?"

I asked, over and over, for a quote for the final work to be carried out. I told them it was going over budget too far. They sidestepped every request. But they had the boat, what was I supposed to do?
Because I didn't know enough it's my tough luck that I've been ripped off? That's not remotely credible, or acceptable.
I agree to work on the basis it will cost £xxx and then it costs £xxxx, and there's nothing but shrugs and mumbled excuses.
The last time I spoke to the Yard's owner on the phone he had the nerve to say, "my problem is this boat's been with us for too long".