Think I might be in trouble.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

On 23/08/2023 at 21:38, stagedamager said:

We're not all that bad, it's just everyone gets tarred with the same brush sadly due to these very kind of instances.

Hopefully the boatyard will be named, as to stop any guessing and maybe incriminate the wrong yard, but more importantly, to stop it happening again to someone who may be more vulnerable and who may not be able to handle the situation financially, mentally and emotionally.

Edited August 29, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[wandering]

1 minute ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Hopefully the boatyard will be named, as to stop any guessing and maybe incriminate the wrong yard, but more importantly, to stop it happening again to someone who may be more vulnerable and who may not be able to handle the situation mentally and emotionally.

Agreed! I've had some trouble with boatyards in the past, with them fleecing me as a newbie, so if there is another one out there up to these awful shenanigans, I would want to know!

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

44 minutes ago, david909 said:

No, we’re good. Work has completed and boat is due to be collected.

 I don’t want to leave with a state of war existing between us. Things get said that are later regretted. And forewarned is fore armed.

If naughtiness has occurred there are processes available by which the law can be brought to bear.

Sounds like you’ve sought of rolled over and regret previous accusations towards the boatyard???

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

They have sat exams and have letters after their name,  they usually put all their USPs on their website or letterhead.

Professional in that they charge fees, like wot you do!

 

 

Translation:

 

There aren't any qualifications.

 

 

 

[LadyG]

On 25/02/2023 at 13:31, david909 said:

From memory - the replating is the flat of the bottom plus 6 inches up all the way around. Plus double coat blacking all the way up to beneath the gunwales. 
I asked for - the hull to be blasted, welded and reblacked, the extent of the rust was unknown; the engine to be serviced, the "leaking stern tube" to be fixed and the steering gear bearing to be repacked. As work towards those progressed other issues arose - the engine mounts, the fuel tank, the water tank. All checked with me first, all approved because they're essential to basic function, which was the point. Sort out the basic mechanical problems. They offered various other choices - a hatch over the weed hatch to make it easier to get to - too expensive, a steam clean of the engine compartment, again, too expensive, a full engine strip down and rebuild until it was realised what the cost would be.
Didn't check other boatyards, nor would she have made it to any of them. I'd have been marooned until I got a tow, on a boat with no power and no toilet. 
I live in Birmingham, the boat was in Leicestershire. I don't drive so the taxi's and train fares were becoming expensive. It was a combination of factors, including my own health, that led me to using the yard I have used. It was all going to be done (according to the boat agent) by July, then August, then September, then sort it out yourself. Then according to the yard December, then late December, then the New Year, then it turned out they didn't start on it until sometime in January. I bought the boat in April of last year. 
If there's been cheating/ripping off via unnecessary works then that's dealable with. The Small Claims Court would probably suffice.

I'm not sure how much the OP has been overcharged, how could a figure be calculated.

Small claims  used to be a fairly small amount, but it was designed for simple cases. This does not look simple.

I don't know if you recall the problems I had with the sale of my house,  I just had to write it off, I estimate it could have cost me about £20K, in real terms, and I was in such meltdown I just walked away from it all, at great cost in stress and in cash. So I know exactly how OP feels. 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

They have sat exams and have letters after their name,  they usually put all their USPs on their website or letterhead.

Professional in that they charge fees, like wot you do!

 

But I could just pay my membership fees and join one of the boat surveyors 'organisations' and have letters after name without any experience of bost surveying.

Some of the organisations require evidence of some years experience and engineering qualifications, others don't.

[david909]

7 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Sounds like you’ve sought of rolled over and regret previous accusations towards the boatyard???

Not at all.
But if they have regarded me as an idiot, who can be parted easily from his money, then it's better that they continue to believe that up to the point where the summons falls through their letterbox.
And it may well be that once shown the invoices, someone from another yard would say, "that's about what I would charge" and all that happened was the people selling the boat (brokers) were the liars and the Yard, beyond going too far with one set of jobs, haven't done much wrong at all.
No good pi**ing off a Yard owner, and ending up being known as ill tempered and inclined to start throwing accusation around, especially groundlessly. 
Speak softly and carry a big stick, as the saying goes.

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Translation:

 

There aren't any qualifications.

 

 

 

 

That may be the case, but there is a doctrine in law called passing off - as was emphasised on my IMI legal studies. The fact he says/writes/advertises himself or his company as surveyors means that he is claiming an expertise above members of a general public. The same applies to the yard who accepted and undertook the work. The problem seem to me that the courts have been too ready to accept the get out of jail free cards such businesses seem to put into their contracts and surveys and not put enough weight on the fact the business has claimed expertise but not acted as an expert.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

On 23/08/2023 at 15:39, david909 said:

Received and understood. Thankyou.

I explained the case to a legal company who seemed to think I had some grounds, but they wanted £1000 for a letter telling me what those grounds were.
I just laughed.

 

2 hours ago, david909 said:

Not at all.
But if they have regarded me as an idiot, who can be parted easily from his money, then it's better that they continue to believe that up to the point where the summons falls through their letterbox.
And it may well be that once shown the invoices, someone from another yard would say, "that's about what I would charge" and all that happened was the people selling the boat (brokers) were the liars and the Yard, beyond going too far with one set of jobs, haven't done much wrong at all.
No good pi**ing off a Yard owner, and ending up being known as ill tempered and inclined to start throwing accusation around, especially groundlessly. 
Speak softly and carry a big stick, as the saying goes.

 
So now you have employed a legal Representative to take on your case and are going through the Courts to  get the situation with your boat resolved?

Edited August 29, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[LadyG]

In yachty circles there are surveying qualifications, these would cover steel, and other construction methods, I've seen these qualifications on surveyors letterheads. Ok, they may may not be specialist in narrowboats, but I can't see much difference, there is steel thickness, general construction, general design, electrics and gas, it's really not very different. Though I'd not employ a specialist narrowboat surveyor to survey a yacht, too specialist imho.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

38 minutes ago, LadyG said:

In yachty circles there are surveying qualifications, these would cover steel, and other construction methods, I've seen these qualifications on surveyors letterheads. Ok, they may may not be specialist in narrowboats, but I can't see much difference, there is steel thickness, general construction, general design, electrics and gas, it's really not very different. Though I'd not employ a specialist narrowboat surveyor to survey a yacht, too specialist imho.

I’ve seen Offshore surveyors being employed to survey Narrowboats and they’ve picked up/prioritised on totally different aspects of the boat that an experienced Narrowboat surveyor would of done. Often the main one being removable inspection hatches along the full length of to boat to check base plate for water and the lack of bilge pumps throughout the boat. Often comparing the difference between ocean going boats and Narrowboats but failing to recognise the difference in the environment they’re operating in.

Edited August 29, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[david909]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 

 
So now you have employed a legal Representative to take on your case and are going through the Courts to  get the situation with your boat resolved?

Not yet.
That's a little way down the list. Something for the week after next.
 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

For some reason with the tone of some of your replies and also how long this situation has dragged on your going to let the boatyard get away with it. 🤔🤔

[Grassman]

I've just read through this torrid tale and although you've made some mistakes you've been so unlucky, and it's heartbreaking to see what you've been through.

 

I was ripped off by the same yard (the place I'm pretty certain you've been dealing with) a few years ago, but thankfully only to the tune of about £600. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

10 minutes ago, Grassman said:

I've just read through this torrid tale and although you've made some mistakes you've been so unlucky, and it's heartbreaking to see what you've been through.

 

I was ripped off by the same yard (the place I'm pretty certain you've been dealing with) a few years ago, but thankfully only to the tune of about £600. 

Is anyone going to name this Yard, or at least give an area so people can get an idea, so to try and stop incidents like this from happening, as it Looks like it could be happening quite regularly.

Edited August 29, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Is anyone going to name this Yard, or at least give an area so people can get an idea, so to try and stop incidents like this from happening, as it Looks like it could be happening quite regularly.

 

If they do, the post will get deleted as I very much doubt Dan has the resources and inclination to defend a court action for defamation.

 

Nothing to stop people speculating privately by PM though! 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

13 hours ago, david909 said:

No, we’re good. Work has completed and boat is due to be collected.

 I don’t want to leave with a state of war existing between us. Things get said that are later regretted. And forewarned is fore armed.

If naughtiness has occurred there are processes available by which the law can be brought to bear.

One of the problems is that when you start on a boat that hasn't been looked after, you never know what's going to turn up.

The replating of mine cost almost a third more than the quoted price, but quite justifiably. Example - the shot clean blew a whacking great hole in the side below the waterline where it appeared the boat had been repaired with what seemed to be a car repair fibreglass kit. Which hadn't been spotted by the surveyor prior to the previous replating.

The rudder tube was rotten, the previous replaters hadn't gone all the way to the stern, the weed hatch had to be replaced, and so on. A lot depends on your relationship with the yard and its reputation, but often you've got no choice as it's the only one available.

These days I take any quoted price with a large pinch of salt and make sure I've got an extra third as a contingency. Nor do I expect a job to be done properly or as expected, and if it involves nuts and bolts, I assume I'll tighten them up myself and hope I don't miss any.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 These days I take any quoted price with a large pinch of salt and make sure I've got an extra third as a contingency. Nor do I expect a job to be done properly or as expected, and if it involves nuts and bolts, I assume I'll tighten them up myself and hope I don't miss any.

 So you seam quite happy to get ripped off and put up with a sub-standard job and not the one you paid for. Maybe it’s because of boaters like yourself that seam to just put up with these sub-standard yards, that these yards continue to rip people off and are allowed to do inferior work, a bit like the OP.

[cuthound]

6 hours ago, david909 said:

Speak softly and carry a big stick, as the saying goes.

 

That was my usual approach with contractors when I was a project manager.

 

However I did have the benefit of the specification to fall back on, where I included clauses regarding the quality of the work and being able to bring someone else in to rectify it at the original contactors expense should  it be necessary.

Edited August 29, 2023 by cuthound
Clarification

[HenryFreeman]

2 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 So you seam quite happy to get ripped off and put up with a sub-standard job and not the one you paid for. Maybe it’s because of boaters like yourself that seam to just put up with these sub-standard yards, that these yards continue to rip people off and are allowed to do inferior work, a bit like the OP.

 

What's the alternative? I've got a claim in the works against the first boat yard that was supposed to be painting my boat but beyond that, what can we do? I'd love to know because I'd be more than happy to get involved.

 

The second boat yard that eventually finished my boat is well known for not even close to  hitting the deadlines they agree to. I called them liars and bullsh*tters but it was like water off a duck's back to them. Next time I spoke to them it was almost like we were best mates. I assume they've got used to it and they carry on regardless.

 

I'll give them their dues, they did a mostly good job which I'm happy with although I've ended up with paint where it shouldn't be (inside the boat - it's not bad but not the point. Masking wasn't good enough) but they've worn me down to the point I couldn't go through taking my boat back to them and I'll fix it myself.

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

On 29/08/2023 at 14:46, HenryFreeman said:

 

What's the alternative? I've got a claim in the works against the first boat yard that was supposed to be painting my boat but beyond that, what can we do? I'd love to know because I'd be more than happy to get involved.

 

The second boat yard that eventually finished my boat is well known for not even close to  hitting the deadlines they agree to. I called them liars and bullsh*tters but it was like water off a duck's back to them. Next time I spoke to them it was almost like we were best mates. I assume they've got used to it and they carry on regardless.

 

I'll give them their dues, they did a mostly good job which I'm happy with although I've ended up with paint where it shouldn't be (inside the boat - it's not bad but not the point. Masking wasn't good enough) but they've worn me down to the point I couldn't go through taking my boat back to them and I'll fix it myself.

 

 

So will you take your boat back to the second boat yard to get work done in future? 
  You sound like the OP, let the situation drag on too long and just rolled with it till it wore you down and then just wanted it over, so paid for the work and took your boat. I imagine it’s the easiest solution that suits.

[HenryFreeman]

9 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

So will you take your boat back to the second boat yard to get work done in future? 
  You sound like the OP, let the situation drag on too long and just rolled with it till it wore you down and then just wanted it over, so paid for the work and took your boat. I imagine it’s the easiest solution that suits.

 

I took my boat to a second boat yard to get the work finished. The first boat yard had almost a year with my boat. The second boat yard got the job done albeit with little more haste than the first boat yard but at least the job was done properly and with a few exceptions I'm pleased with the work. They had it for 8 months though.

 

What else was I do to? Take it to a third boat yard and throw another bunch of money at them and retrieve the money from the second boat yard as I'm currently doing with the first boat yard?

 

It's not like having a car which is easy to get back from a garage if work starts going pear shaped.

 

It's also very easy to say "you should be doing this" or "should be doing that" from the sidelines. 

 

Edit. Misread the first line of your comment. No is the answer to that one unless it's related to the paintwork (ie. it starts peeling off).

 

To be honest, the whole experience has put me off ever setting foot in either Selby or Castleford again. There's plenty of other canals I've yet to visit so I've no good reason to go back to either place.

Edited August 30, 2023 by HenryFreeman

[Arthur Marshall]

13 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

So will you take your boat back to the second boat yard to get work done in future? 
  You sound like the OP, let the situation drag on too long and just rolled with it till it wore you down and then just wanted it over, so paid for the work and took your boat. I imagine it’s the easiest solution that suits.

I got my engine done at a yard much recommended as being excellent, quoted as a three week job. Three months later I discovered the only way to get any work done on mine , rather than all the others he appeared to be doing , was to treat him like estate agents and solicitors and phone up every other day and call in twice a week. He did a good job, apart from not giving me the promised summary of work done and any actual details of it, while fitting one bss fail pipe and exacerbating the diesel leak, which he refused to accept any Lister ever does.

It's what they do. They work on boat time, not like other jobs.

[Peanut]

Boat yard time. I believe they are notorious for delay.  One near here took eighteen months to change a gearbox, propshaft, and p-bracket. All justified of course, got a move on when the insurance company wanted to know how long to go. lol

[Bee]

This is a terrible tale of what happens all too frequently with boats. In the years that I have been boating the 'Professionals' have moved in. No longer is boating a do it yourself pastime, buying, selling, surveying, repairing, installing gas and electric, engine repairs, painting and much more is now entrusted to expensive 'Professionals' who advertise their expensive services to people who think the work is beyond them or even illegal to tackle and trust boatyards to do the work properly and on time. All too often the people doing the work are not that great or experienced, the jobs are complex, the original fit outs are not built with any future access in mind and some jobs can turn out much more difficult than the original estimate or quote allowed for. If the owner knew more about his or her boat and its systems some of this grief could be avoided. Most of the stuff that really matters with boats is not shiny or varnished - its rusty, greasy, oily and hidden so that really is the stuff to learn.